Provident Personal Credit

[purplrpunto]

Can anyone help us please. We work for Provident Personal credit on a self employed basis. They have now decided to FINE us if arrears customers dont pay us. Some agents are losing up to £250 wages, which is more than most actually earn. ACAS cant help so does anyone have any ideas. Help would be much appreciated. Thanks

[Guest]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

Since you are self employed, this falls under contract law, not employment law. What are the terms of the contract that you have with Provident?

[purplrpunto]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

There isnt anything in our contract that says they can do this. It just says that any shorts we have to replace. Cant see anything else relating to taking this sort of money from us

[charitynjw]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

Possibly

James v Redcats (Brands) Ltd [2007] IRLR 296

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT...5_06_2102.html

[CleverClogs]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - Deductions from wages

If this is accurate, it would certainly seem to explain reports I have seen elsewhere of Provident collectors allegedly harassing debtors, both by telephone and unwanted personal visits.

Whilst there are limits on how much pay an employer may lawfully deduct from an employee's wages, these only seem to apply to retail or shop workers.

[Guest]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - Deductions from wages

If this is accurate, it would certainly seem to explain reports I have seen elsewhere of Provident collectors allegedly harassing debtors, both by telephone and unwanted personal visits.

Whilst there are limits on how much pay an employer may lawfully deduct from an employee's wages, these only seem to apply to retail or shop workers.

It would apply to any employment but cannot apply here since as the OP wrote, they are self-employed.

There isnt anything in our contract that says they can do this. It just says that any shorts we have to replace. Cant see anything else relating to taking this sort of money from us

What used to happen when you, as a collector, fail to collect a sum that should be paid?

Presumably "shorts" would mean money that you stated that you have collected but that you don't have, this is not the same as a customer not actually paying when they should. You are not responsible for the principal sum and nor are you the borrower, so why should you pay? How much is the "fine" they are levying, is it the same as the sum that has not been paid?

[purplrpunto]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

It depends at what stage arrears the customer is. The fines are £5, £10 or £15. Its if a customer doesnt pay anything at all and they drop a stage we will get charged. I cant find anyone who can tell us if this is legal or not as we are self employed

[CleverClogs]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

Who pays your tax and NI?

[charitynjw]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

Possibly

James v Redcats (Brands) Ltd [2007] IRLR 296

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKEAT...5_06_2102.html

Sorry, guys, but I am not convinced that pp & co are not covered by the ERA, even if, on the face of it, they are self-employed.
Many other factors can be taken into account to define whether they are 'workers' (eg - can they get someone else to do thir collections, or are they contractually bound to only do it themselves?)
Although it would be a matter for the Courts to decide (to 'look behind the label' of self-employment), it would, in my opinion, be worth investigating, as I would hazard a guess that if there is sufficient evidence to submit a good claim to an Employment Tribunal under legislation, the employer's solicitors will advise the employer to play fair.
& if it does go to ET, ACAS have to mediate, which might clarify the situation a little.
I believe the above-mentioned case is an 'authority' on this kind of case.

[purplrpunto]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

Who pays your tax and NI?

We pay our own tax and national insurance. But I just would like to find out that even though we signed a contract to say Provident will pay us commision on what we collect, there isnt anything in the contract to say that they can make deductions. So are they allowed to do this?

[Caspar]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

Given you are neither the lender nor the borrower I would doubt this is legal. There is also the issue of whether you are geuninely self employed. The reason I say this is that without knowing the details of employment law as Cet does, if you were self employed fully, presumably you could choose not to visit the non payers, thus avoiding the fines. There must therefore be something in your contract about visiting these households. I cannot see any way the law would allow for you to be penalised for non payment by people over whom you have no control.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

We pay our own tax and national insurance. But I just would like to find out that even though we signed a contract to say Provident will pay us commision on what we collect, there isnt anything in the contract to say that they can make deductions. So are they allowed to do this?

I would not have supposed so, as that would mean that they had altered the terms of their contract with you without your consent,

Do you work solely on commission or does Provident pay you a basic wage or retainer for your services?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

... There is also the issue of whether you are geuninely self employed. The reason I say this is that without knowing the details of employment law as Cet does, if you were self employed fully, presumably you could choose not to visit the non payers, thus avoiding the fines. There must therefore be something in your contract about visiting these households. I cannot see any way the law would allow for you to be penalised for non payment by people over whom you have no control.

That may be a very important point,as whilst a genuinely self-employed person may choose his/her clients, a servant of the company must go where s/he is directed.

[purplrpunto]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

I would not have supposed so, as that would mean that they had altered the terms of their contract with you without your consent,

Do you work solely on commission or does Provident pay you a basic wage or retainer for your services?

We work on commission only. What they are actually doing is, if a customer falls to a further arrears stage we get a £5, £10 or £15 fine if they dont make a certain payment which Provident states in our collecting book.

[Caspar]

Re: Provident Personal Credit - THEIVES

We have a lovely Prov lady visits my wife. Remind me on Monday and I'll try to remember to ask her if this is a national thing or just your branch.