court claim for dilapidations received

[deeplydebty]

Hi,
my Wife and I (not Ltd company) just got a court claim each for alleged repair work on a shop that we rented.

The amount started at nearly £40,000 (prepared by a genuine surveyor!!!) then miraculously dropped to £16,000 after we told them where to go.

We had offered to stay on paying rent after our lease ended to carry out the repairs that were required but they refused and got their own contractor in.

We offered £6,000 consisting of the £4,000 rent deposit that they still have and £2,000 borrowed from a relative but they said no.

Basically, we are broke. We have a house but the mortgage and second charge mean no equity and we also owe a good £45,000 on cards/loans.

We are self employed and have been struggling to keep the business going, taking a very low income in the meantime.

We have 3 kids at home and one grandchild.

We have no assets except my trusty, rusty 200,000 mile ford galaxy.

I'm assuming I should acknowledge the claim then accept owing some of the money - £6,000 (which is what we thought we would spend doing the repair work that was required without the betterment that they have paid for, ie much better flooring than was there to start etc) but do I then have to counter claim for the rental deposit as the claim is for the entire £16,000?

To be honest, if we lose, the most we'll be able to offer is £10 a week, which we already told them but they seem to think that we have a hidden stash of cash and assets. If they refuse, what happens then?

Thanks all

[enquirer]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

The amount started at nearly £40,000 (prepared by a genuine surveyor!!!) then miraculously dropped to £16,000 after we told them where to go.

This gives the measure of them.

We had offered to stay on paying rent after our lease ended to carry out the repairs that were required but they refused and got their own contractor in.

You actually offered to do any necessary repairs, but they refused. Do you have this in writing?

We offered £6,000 consisting of the £4,000 rent deposit that they still have and £2,000 borrowed from a relative but they said no.

You offered £6000, which is slightly less then half of the £16,000 in their 'revised' claim. This looks like a reasonable attempt to negotiate.

Do you have the correspondence in which they first demanded £40,000? From £40,000 down to £16,000 in a twinkling will raise some eyebrows. A drop of 60% is unlikely if someone thinks they have a good claim.

I'm assuming I should acknowledge the claim then accept owing some of the money - £6,000 (which is what we thought we would spend doing the repair work that was required ...

Yes, acknowledge service of the claim.

What state were the premises in when you took over? Were they genuinely delapidated when you left (what exactly was wrong)? How long were you there? What was the nature of the business?

What were the terms of the lease? Does it stipulate that you were responsible for the fabric? (major works and maintenance are usually the responsibility of the landowner).

Ideally, you should commission a surveyor or trade professional to provide a written report. However, as you are now out of the premises and the work has already been done, this may not be an option.

Did you take photographs before you left? Is there any correspondence detailing the state of the premises before their works were carried out?

You say that you before you left that you thought that £6000 would be enough. Was this your estimate, or did you get a quote from someone?

... without the betterment that they have paid for, ie much better flooring than was there to start etc) but do I then have to counter claim for the rental deposit as the claim is for the entire £16,000?

The cannot expect to make a profit on the deal.

If they refuse, what happens then?

They will probably look towards the house, although this will avail them nothing as it's in negative equity and the lender will take first bite.

[deeplydebty]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Thanks for your interest and reply.

We made the request for extra time to carry out the remainder of the work (we had already started but ran out of time) to their agent, who we believe was just a neighbour acting for them while they were out of the country. They were very sneaky and responded to her by email, not us, but fortunately when the agent rang to tell us we were out and she read the whole email out onto our answering machine which we have.

We have the original dilapidation report - it was £39,000 and the letter before action where it dropped to £13,000 ish. Maybe I should complain to the royal institute of chartered surveyors for how inept or corrupt their member acted.

The shop was new when we took it on 7 years ago and the most of the repairs that they said were required. It's just that the original dilap report included £10,000 for an 8 unit B&Q budget kitchen which in reality just needed new doors for a couple of hundred quid so you get the gist of their inflated claim. They then got their nephew to do the work who works for their own maintenance company. They wanted us to pay for a complete new ceiling for two small holes in the ceiling which had speakers in. We were going to fill and paint which they said wasn't sufficient. Guess what they eventually did...

We took photos, as did they. We don't dispute that we were liable for putting the place back to how it was and don't dispute much of the items they pointed out, it is the cost and quality and methods of repair that is the problem. Especially as we know what a bodger their nephew is. They adhered to the pre action protocol for most of the claim but broke off at the getting together and mediation parts.

We were doing much of the work ourselves so do not have quotes. They won't show a profit because they will just bill themselves for the work that they did at the same rate they are claiming.

I've looked over the claim and it throws up another tangle. Perhaps I could have your thoughts:

The property consisted of the main part for which we paid rent to the pension fund and an extension which we paid rent to the landlord/owner. Approx a 70/30 split.

When they sent their LBA the total amount claimed was split this way with a request to pay the relevant portion to each.

The claim we have received is JUST from the landlord for the 30%. (I expect they think we won't want a ccj for such a small amount so will pay then the pension fund will wade in and say as we paid the landlords portion we can't dispute theirs) He clearly states in his particulars of claim that we signed a lease with him for the part that he owns - the extension. The extension contained the stairs mainly which contribute no more than a few quid to their dilap claim. Can I therefore admit just the portion of the claim that relates to the part of the building that we signed a lease with him for since only he is currently claiming against us? This would be re-carpeting the stairs and a bit of cheap laminate in the waiting area? The majority of the items in the dilapidation report reside in the part owned by the pension fund. What do you think?

Thanks

[MissFM]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

My opinion (FWIW) is that they are shysters and that you would benefit greatly from competent legal representation.

I'm not at all sure that they are within their rights to prevent you from restoring the dilapidation yourselves, which would certainly be the normal requirement with non-commercial rented property...although the landlord could still object to the quality of the restoration.

[deeplydebty]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Hi MissFM, sadly, in commercial dilapidations when your lease is up your out with no right to re-enter. The work has all now been done by them and a new tenant in.

[MissFM]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Hi MissFM, sadly, in commercial dilapidations when your lease is up your out with no right to re-enter. The work has all now been done by them and a new tenant in.

That would also be true of a domestic tenancy - you would be expected to carry out the work before your lease/agreement expired. If you didn't, then you would be liable for the costs of restoration at the landlord's (reasonable) discretion. Is that what happened with you?

[deeplydebty]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

pretty much. We ran out of time and requested an extension which were prepared to pay rent/rates for but they declined; they then stuck us with a hugely inflated estimate via a surveyor which, once they realised we were not going to pay it, dropped by two thirds or £26,000! The dispute hinges on your bracketed reasonable.

The advice I now seek is whether we should offer only to pay the cost of repairs to the landlord that relate to the part he owns, that he admits in his claim.

legal representation would be lovely but we are in retail and truly are on our arse (forgive my French). We are members of the FSB but their legal representation excludes, you've guessed it, dilapidations, as does the legal cover on our home insurance.

[MissFM]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Have you looked at pro bono?

http://www.nationalprobonocentre.org.uk/

It does look as if you have enough evidence of shenanigans to make a serious stand and perhaps win.

[deeplydebty]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

I hadn't but will now thanks. We have no problem paying what we think is a reasonable amount, not completely shirk our responsibilities. They still have hold of our rental deposit of £3750. Would I need to counter claim for this as they have not reduced the amount they claim we owe by it nor have they returned it.

Just had a look at lawWorks and our income is well below the minimum income they say even including our tax credits! Actually, we're below the joseph rowntree foundation minimum income standard by over a third with 2 kids and we have 3 at home plus an unexpected grandchild. Jeees, we work (self employed) nearly 100 hours a week between us and for what?

[MissFM]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Quite. Go for it! x

[PlanB]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

They still have hold of our rental deposit of £3750. Would I need to counter claim for this as they have not reduced the amount they claim we owe by it nor have they returned it.

Yes. You need to counterclaim for the return of your deposit.

Have you considered mediation to settle this claim? It seems an ideal option in the circumstances.

What evidence is there of the condition of the property/shop when you took on the lease? Was there an inventory with photographs or a schedule of condition provided signed by both parties? Who says the work which they had carried out was work which was needed to return the property to the same condition as it was in when you took on the lease compared to when your lease expired? They can't charge you for betterment or improvements of any kind.

There should be a clause in your lease which identifies exactly who is liable for repairs and when (time frame) these should be carried out. I don't see how you can be expected to do this during the lease period since you would have to stop trading (and lose income) while the work is going on. Check the small print in your lease because that's what the judge will be relying on.

[deeplydebty]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Hi PlanB, I think I'm going to offer payment of £500 as the landlord is only claiming for the part of the building he owns and says he leased to me (basically the stairwell) He has stated this on his claim so may find it difficult to change his mind after I file my response. Otherwise, he is trying to claim for repairs to a part of the building that he has said he neither owns nor leased to me? If he has made an agreement with the pension fund to pay 30% of any repair costs to the total building then that is an agreement between them and they can sort out the money when the pension fund brings action against me.

I will the counterclaim for a third of the deposit from him, I suppose? If he has said that there is a split in the lease then I suppose there must be a split in the deposit so I'd claim £1250 from him which is more than I'm offering to pay so could I end up with a judgement against him if the judge likes me?

My recollection was that the lease was a single lease with the landlord and pension fund as joint lessors.

I believe he has decided to give the impression that the lease is split is so that he can pursue it cheaply through the small claims track as the whole claim was £13,000 and I would have pushed it above the small claims track so that they incurred higher costs which I still wouldn't have been able to pay.

Mediation would work for me but the landlord is intent on getting everything. He was speaking to another shop keeper without knowing he was a friend of mine and said that even if we had no money we had a car and a house so he'd get his money. They broke off from the pre action protocol for dilapidations by not agreeing to a meeting and just launched their LBA after refusing my offer. Should I mention this in my response? I understand that it is a requirement to follow before court action but that it usually just results in no costs being allowed for them?

[PlanB]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

I'll give this some more thought on Monday. Can you tell us the exact date on the county court summons so we can keep an eye in any deadlines you need to comply with for your response

[wales01man]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Was there a dilapidations report given to he OP?

[deeplydebty]

Re: court claim for dilapidations received

Hi PlanB, thanks for your help. Claim issued 14/1/14 and I acknowledged service as soon as I got it yesterday.

wales01man, yes the report came in at £39,000 originally from the surveyor which we told them to eat anally and after much argument the letter before action arrived at £13,000.

We went through the pre-action stuff up to the point of me sending back what I thought the costs should be. The landlord restarted court threats at that point and I wrote to the surveyor telling them that I expected them to continue with the preactionprotocol and offered £6,000 in full and final which consisted of the £3750 rent deposit plus 7 years interest and £2,000 borrowed from my Mother-in-law. They declined and here we are. No face to face meeting, no offer of mediation.

We've made it clear to the landlord, pension fund and surveyor that we have no money (-£45,000 at least), no equity in our house and a car worth £300 (on a good day). We lease a car through the business so perhaps they think it's ours. I even offered to show them the budget plan we did for the debt advice people but they are not interested.

If we end up with a cc what is the minimum amount that would be accepted per month and if that was more than we could afford what then?

Thanks all.