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Deceased brother

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  • Deceased brother

    Hi.

    I found out that my eldest brother died around 18 months ago. The family kind of drifted apart due to issues after mother died over 20 years ago.

    I discovered he died intestate and administration was obtained by another brother. Net value is listed at £200k

    The deceased had 4 siblings, one of which is now also deceased, a few months after him.

    I managed to find out who the agent for the sale of his property was and the solicitors dealing with the sale and contacted them.

    The reply was as follows.

    Our client`s understanding is that you were an half brother of the deceased and are therefore not entitled to a share of the estate under the intestacy rules .

    We all have the same parents listed on our birth certificates.

    My mother left father when I was around 2 with a brother 2 years older than me. The elder 3 children stayed with father. My mother then remarried some years later.

    Not sure where to go with this now. I have ordered a copy of my birth certificate, also requested a copy of the statement of oath that the brother made at the probate court.

    Any comments much appreciated
    Tags: None

  • #2
    Peridot

    I'm sorry to hear of your loss and the subsequent issue with one of your surviving brothers.

    Do do you know if the other surviving siblings received anything from the estate ? Or if the other deceased brother received anything ? Guessing the two siblings who went with your mum are the ones who have been said to be 'half' siblings and thus not entitled ? Maybe that's what the others were brought up believing

    Is your father still alive ?

    I've tagged Peridot to look in but she's not about today.
    Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

    “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

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    Comment


    • #3
      Not sure about what he declared on the PA1 to the probate office regards other siblings. I am awaiting for a copy of the statement of oath that he made.

      The sibling who died after this one who's estate is in question, died before the letters of administration were obtained.

      Both parents are now deceased.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi Paul1962,

        It must be tough reading the solicitors letter having believed you were all siblings. The assertion may not be correct but may have come from explanations given by your father to the three children remaining with him after the split? There could be any number of reasons. I am not sure who would be responsible for showing they are/are not whole blood relatives, particularly when the same parents are named on the birth certificates. If I can find the information I will post it up.

        Were there ever any rumours in the family about parentage?
        Did you have no contact with the three siblings who stayed with your father, growing up?

        Legally, if there are whole blood siblings then they would take precedence over half blood siblings under the Intestacy Rules, which I am sure you are aware of. It always sounds so Harry Potterish and harks back to time’s gone by but unfortunately the law remains.
        Once the birth certificate is obtained and provided to the solicitor I would ask what evidence they have that you were not full blood relations. There may be evidence or it may of course be hearsay and unfounded. People, whether parents or other family members can say things when dealing with relationship breakdowns, with no thought for the consequence to others, particularly children. In this day and age probably less prevalent but maybe for older generations being brought up with the various stigmas held at the time, it was more common?

        I would see what the solicitor says and how they propose demonstrating the genetic relationship between you and your siblings. A DNA test could of course be carried out but you would need to consider how the results may affect you if they do not return the results you expect.
        I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

        Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

        If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the response.

          Yes I had contact while growing up with the elder siblings.

          Some contact with father but not loads, as that was contentious with mother due to maintenance being very hit and miss, well more miss really.

          I am interested to see what information he provided on the PA1 when administration was granted, to see how he described other siblings too.

          DNA tests I believe can determine if both siblings have the same father by the Y chromosome. The argument then of course, if it came back as different fathers, could be, well who is the half sibling, as without DNA for parents and the deceased brother, the argument could go back and forth.

          If it was a small amount, I would just say there you go have it. However it is not..

          Comment


          • #6
            Just to clarify, your deceased eldest brother, is one of the siblings who stayed with your father?
            If different fathers were shown to be involved, would the most likely scenario be that ‘father’ kept his biological children with him when the marriage broke up?
            Is it alleged that both you and your elder brother who went with mother are half siblings or only you?
            I suspect more discussion will be needed. Are there no other family members, aunts uncles maybe that could shed some light?
            I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

            Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

            If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Peridot View Post
              Just to clarify, your deceased eldest brother, is one of the siblings who stayed with your father?
              If different fathers were shown to be involved, would the most likely scenario be that ‘father’ kept his biological children with him when the marriage broke up?
              Is it alleged that both you and your elder brother who went with mother are half siblings or only you?
              I suspect more discussion will be needed. Are there no other family members, aunts uncles maybe that could shed some light?
              The 3 that stayed with father were quite a bit older than me and brother. We were 2 and 4, elder 3 were about 13, 15 and 17.

              Later on once my mother remarried and settled the eldest brother who is now deceased, and the brother who as the administration, also lived with us for many years. Sister by then had married, and she is now deceased.

              Not sure until I get the statement of oath how he described other brother on the PA1.

              Aunts and uncles are all deceased. Mother died at age 72 in 1994. Father died around 1990.

              Comment


              • #8
                Have you provided a copy of your birth certificate to your brothers solicitor at all ?
                Common Sense .... if in doubt, use it !

                “We may not win by protesting, but if we don’t protest we will lose. If we stand up to them, there is always a chance we will win.” Hetty Bower

                Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                If we have helped you we'd appreciate it if you can leave a review on our Trust Pilot page

                Find Solicitors offering fixed fees on our sister site - JustBeagle.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                  Have you provided a copy of your birth certificate to your brothers solicitor at all ?
                  Received it Saturday. I have also ordered a copy of the deceased brothers birth certificate.

                  Brothers solicitors are only dealing with the conveyancing of property. Letters of administration were obtained by the brother personally, and the rest of the estate he as already got old of. Around £140K in cash.

                  I received a copy of the statement of oath he made for probate court, however the information I would like to see is the details he put on the PA1 form with the probate office relating to siblings and half siblings declaration. And whether living or pre deceased.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi Paul1962,

                    Have you contacted the brother as administrator of the estate to request what evidence he has that you are not whole blood relative?
                    Do you know when completion of the property sale is due to happen?

                    At this stage you need to ensure that until the issue of who is entitled under the Intestacy Rules is sorted, the Administrator should not distribute any more of the estate. It may be necessary to speak to a contested probate specialist to get a letter sent to the Administrator, confirming that there is a question over who should be treated as beneficiaries under the strict Intestacy Rules and that there should be no distribution of the sale proceeds until such time as the proof is provided regarding parentage of the siblings.

                    Hopefully, once birth certificates have been dealt with and provided there is no other evidence to the contrary things can be sorted out reasonably sensibly. It would of course be much harder to sort if the estate has been completely distributed. I would suggest it is really important to get some advice now and act on it. Even if you just get a free half hour or reduced fee initial appointment, at least you will be in a better position to understand what evidence may be required and also how to prevent the estate being distributed prior to these matters being sorted out.
                    I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

                    Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

                    If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Peridot View Post
                      Hi Paul1962,

                      Have you contacted the brother as administrator of the estate to request what evidence he has that you are not whole blood relative?
                      Do you know when completion of the property sale is due to happen?

                      At this stage you need to ensure that until the issue of who is entitled under the Intestacy Rules is sorted, the Administrator should not distribute any more of the estate. It may be necessary to speak to a contested probate specialist to get a letter sent to the Administrator, confirming that there is a question over who should be treated as beneficiaries under the strict Intestacy Rules and that there should be no distribution of the sale proceeds until such time as the proof is provided regarding parentage of the siblings.

                      Hopefully, once birth certificates have been dealt with and provided there is no other evidence to the contrary things can be sorted out reasonably sensibly. It would of course be much harder to sort if the estate has been completely distributed. I would suggest it is really important to get some advice now and act on it. Even if you just get a free half hour or reduced fee initial appointment, at least you will be in a better position to understand what evidence may be required and also how to prevent the estate being distributed prior to these matters being sorted out.
                      My solicitor wrote to brother, got no reply. That was when I found out who the agents for the property were and got in touch with the conveyancing solicitor. That was when I got back the reply about being half sibling. I have given my birth certificate today to my solicitor, and have applied for a copy of the deceased brothers too. Both show same parents, both registered by father.

                      My solicitor as now put the conveyancing solicitor on warning today, also plans to register a restriction with land registry if required to at least protect some of the assets.

                      Would really like to see what he actually stated regards siblings on the PA1 for grant of administration, as there is also another brother still alive who is also a beneficiary.

                      I have also today requested a search of family court records for a copy of parents divorce, as father was also ordered to pay maintenance for myself and other brother. Believe the grounds were for unreasonable behaviour and it was mother who was the applicant.

                      Just trying to get as much paperwork in line as possible to refute the ridiculous claim.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Paul1962,

                        Glad the solicitor seems to have done all they can to protect the remaining asset until such time as this matter is sorted out. I'm not sure how the PA1 form would assist you. If your 'brother' does not believe you to be a blood relative of the deceased then they would not have to enter any details. Here is a link to the PA1 form which shows the questions that are asked. http://www.probateforms.info/wp-cont...ation-Form.pdf

                        The Grant of Letters of Administration will give an indication of the estate value both gross (whole value) and the net value (excludes funeral expenses debts etc). I assume you have requested a copy of the grant but if not, here is the link https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

                        Do you know if your brother dealt with the estate himself or whether solicitors were involved? I suspect he has dealt himself otherwise the conveyancers would be aware of someone acting for him. The Grant may give an indication.

                        I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

                        Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

                        If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Peridot View Post
                          Hi Paul1962,

                          Glad the solicitor seems to have done all they can to protect the remaining asset until such time as this matter is sorted out. I'm not sure how the PA1 form would assist you. If your 'brother' does not believe you to be a blood relative of the deceased then they would not have to enter any details. Here is a link to the PA1 form which shows the questions that are asked. http://www.probateforms.info/wp-cont...ation-Form.pdf

                          The Grant of Letters of Administration will give an indication of the estate value both gross (whole value) and the net value (excludes funeral expenses debts etc). I assume you have requested a copy of the grant but if not, here is the link https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate

                          Do you know if your brother dealt with the estate himself or whether solicitors were involved? I suspect he has dealt himself otherwise the conveyancers would be aware of someone acting for him. The Grant may give an indication.
                          Hi Peridot.

                          The PA1 form asks at the section 5 of form for details of surviving and deceased siblings and half siblings etc.


                          https://assets.publishing.service.go...94/pa1-eng.pdf

                          At the time the brother died, a sister was alive, but died 2 months before the probate was applied for, want to see if he declared her. Also the other surviving brother 2 years older than myself may not have been declared, or may have been mis declared as I suspect he as done with myself.

                          The grant gives details of net value, and we have a copy of that.

                          The brother applied for the letters of administration himself. They are in his name.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Ok, leave it with me I'll see if there is a way of obtaining the PA1, I haven't found a way yet but will of course post if I find anything.
                            I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

                            Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

                            If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Ok have tried to find out how to get a copy PA1. Eventually got through to someone at HMRC on their probate helpline 0300 123 1072 who said the best bet is to contact the probate registry where the grant was issued (it will state this on the top of the grant) either by phone but they often are too busy to answer or by e-mail to request a copy. The probate registry details are here:https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/search/

                              He didn't know how long they keep the forms for or whether they are scanned/destroyed etc after a period of time.

                              What he did say is if no luck getting through to the registry give them a call back and they can contact the registry to say call back. You will need all the info from the Grant and I suggest it would be helpful to explain that you believe the administrator may not have declared all necessary relatives on the form.

                              Hopefully this helps, just be warned the holding music is a bit irritating!
                              I am a qualified solicitor employed by the LegalBeagles forum to provide guidance on a wide range of legal queries. I am happy to try and assist informally, where needed.

                              Any posts I make on LegalBeagles are for information and discussion purposes only and shouldn't be seen as legal advice. Any practical advice I give is without liability. I do not represent people on the forum.

                              If in doubt you should always seek professional face to face legal advice.

                              Comment

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