Is it safe to contest the CCA?

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

im not sure that its silly season,

its the problem you face as a litigant in person,
.............
..........

The problem is a good understanding of the law, which most LIPs struggle with

Never a truer post on any forum.

Good legal representation is worth its weight in gold,but is not easily available to most.

You can fight the fight as a LIP but your chances of succeeding are multiplied a hundred fold when the man in the shiny shoes and a suit is arguing the case for you.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Yet another disastrous decision today!!

kaz3571 V Cabot

Looks like the silly season is now in full swing--hardly worth having laws if the judiciary take no notice of them!

hi all
been for the last hearing today and it is with great sadness i have to inform everybody that i have lost. Cabot admitted that the original agreement was destroyed and all they had was the unreadable copy. I argued that pd16 said they needed to provide the original in court. The judge (wrongly) said wakesman had ruled that a re constituted copy would suffice. i argued that wakesman was only dealing with a s 87 request for a copy agreement and it had no bearing on this case of a creditor taking a debtor to court but he was having none of it so i lost. dont really know where i go from here i know the judge was wrong but sometimes you realise that whatever you say it not getting through.#

kaz

PT, thats my local court lol - Watsons Solicitors | Latest News

[cymruambyth]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Now watch a certain company become inundated with requests for help!

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Ive got 7 more stories waiting to go on the site


we are having the site overhauled cos its rubbish really, but IT isnt my strong point lol

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

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[Tools]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

If you are updating the wins it may be useful to add the cases that were lost too, for balance.

[TomThumb]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

The problem is a good understanding of the law, which most LIPs struggle with

Hmm and there was me thinking the judge was supposed to give more leeway to the LiP for the very reason he is not knowledgable in the law:tinysmile_cry_t:

Tom

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Unenforceable credit agreements - The Office of Fair Trading

For everyones info.

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

And another more worrying link from the OFT that seems to negate many of the defences or arguments that many have previously relied on.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...it/OFT1272.pdf

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Hmm and there was me thinking the judge was supposed to give more leeway to the LiP for the very reason he is not knowledgable in the law:tinysmile_cry_t:

Tom

yes, but hold on for a moment, if the LIP attends court and has no understanding of the law, then the judge will most likely hear from the other sides counsel, and decide who is right on the basis of submissions and the judges reading of the law

A good barrister may well be able to convince the judge that his argument is right, and your argument is wrong, as a LIP.

Lets not forget, if you want advice on a boiler you see a gas man, if you want advice on a car you go to a garage, by the same token, you must remember that a Judge is most likely to follow what a barrister says if there is an issue over the law

This is why a good barrister is really essential to winning these days.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

just adding this to lender wins - Blackhorse v Hanson & onr Jan 2009- is vat part of total charge for credit or amount of credit

- in firms favour

Slater v Egg
Carey v HSBC
Amex v Brandon
Amex v Duffy
Kneale v Barclaycard
Blackhorse v Speak
SPML v Walker
Brooks v Northern Rock
Sternlight and Others v Various banks
Napier v HFC
Teasdale v HSBC
Brophy v HFC
Shaw v Nine Regions
Armstrong v Amex
Heath v SPML
McGuffick v RBS
Blackhorse v Hanson

Countycourt/forums
ccman v cabot (goldfish)
hunni2006 v cabot
Debenhams v Zhanzibhar
??? v Costa


- in consumers favour

Durkin v DSG Retail
Crutchely v Godebt
Yates v Nemo (PPI)
Woollerton v Blackhorse (PPI)
MBNA v Thouris (PPI)


countycourt/forum
MBNA v McCullagh
Arrow Global v Devlin
HFC Bank Limited v Mrs H
Phoenix Recoveries v Dr C
Cabot Financial UK Limited v Mr and Mrs P
DLC / Hillsden v Mr L



Read more at: Is it safe to contest the CCA? - Page 3 - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

[basa48]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Slater v Egg - OK a defeat (but probably because the defendant screwed up her evidence)
Carey v HSBC - very badly prepared claim – probably a set up but no real loss for the debtor. s78 was never going to work for unenforceability.
Amex v Brandon - a shocking travesty of justice, bending the act to breaking point to be appealed and appalled
Amex v Duffy
Kneale v Barclaycard - this was only a case for disclosure where the claimant had no grounds for disclosure
Blackhorse v Speak
SPML v Walker
Brooks v Northern Rock
Sternlight and Others v Various banks - interest not calculated to be same as APR ? Even I could have trashed this case !
Napier v HFC
Teasdale v HSBC
Brophy v HFC
Shaw v Nine Regions
Armstrong v Amex
Heath v SPML
McGuffick v RBS - A case with an enforceable agreement - what a shocker !
Blackhorse v Hanson

I have no knowledge of the others.

IMO none of these were real defeats to debtors with good cases (which is probably why they got to court). These were wins for common sense and no more than that.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Basa - they are still defeats, still create case law and of course the banks/lenders ensure they only take cases to court they can win but for every one they do it becomes more risky for others to take the same arguments, so it is important not to just write off high court and appeal court judgments as 'poor organisation', 'dodgy judge' etc.

I agree that a lot of the judgments are a win for common sense. And thankfully the cases which DO have true detriment to consumers, those that are iredeemably unenforceable with misstated credit figures or which simply were just never taken out in the first place and still winning and people are still gaining some justice, and the others, win or lose, are at least clarifying matters and theories and the law for others to follow and utilise.

Brandon is concerning, the 14 days issues cannot remain as de minimus, that is clear. However I do not agree in consumers, who never intended to pay up the arrears within the true 14 days anyway, should be using the bank being one or two days out to avoid paying legitimate debts. Brandon is also concerning due to the judgment on credit card late payment charges and I hope that judgment does not become a thorn in the side of reclaimers of those fees.

Kneale you say 'was only for disclosure' - we know, and it is still important as many people were pushed into making 31.16 requests and applying at court for orders on fishing trips. We can pretend all we like but that is what is was and is used for in UEA world. In one way it is a pain now that door is shut and there are no criminal sanctions for non compliance with 78 anymore that make it hard to get your agreement copy - however if there truely is a dispute and a valid reason for obtaining sight of the documentation - I dont see why 31.16 can't still succeed, but it stops people using it as a fishing trip as a second step towards trying to screw over the lenders.

Slater v Egg - yes the defendant may have said something wrong about the familiarity of documents, however that wasnt the main argument. The main argument was about the approved limit wording. This had been cleared up in a couple other cases previously and was an erroneous argument, as proven by the judgment in this case. And that is extremely helpful for people, and its not useful to attack it because the defendant said something different about receipt of the terms and conditions and thus encouraging people to ignore the facts of the judgement.

Carey and Sternlight - bought by money sucking leaches with no basis or detriment and both absolute common sense judgments (particularly Sternlight though I agree with Carey and am glad that judgment was made).

We can look at them in different ways, but attacking the judgments just doesnt help people who are continually being encouraged just to stop paying debts because of technicalities. People should be told the truth of the situation on encouraged to use breaches of the CCA (where there is no major dispute about the debt) to obtain a reasonable repayment arrangement if they are struggling, to get cases sent back to the original creditors, and to renegotiate interest/default sums on the debts. It can be very useful, and used to be, but now as soon as a CCA request is received the bank thinks debt avoider now and court action is far too often forthcoming where there so needn't have been.


edit: missed one you commented on - McGuffick - has certainly made clear what does and doesnt constitute enforcement. It is and will continue to be detrimental to innocent consumers who have actually suffered incorrect recordings on CRAs and had intense DCA contact and court proceedings bought against them for debts they just simply do not owe (through ID fraud/previously settled etc) and force them to go through court on DPA issues and CCA issues to get things sorted now. It also damages people who were using the CCA to get debts back to original creditors and repayment plans off the back of them not being able to locate agreements because this bolshy attitude is growing 'ahh but its not enforcement, so we can do what we like'. Should never have gone to court, but it did.


I'm a great believer in common sense.

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

i would say, each case should be judged on its own merits.

There is far tooo much of this one size fits all stuff going on, where the advice is stop paying and do this and then that etc

when we look at a new job, we ascertain the background of a case, we then ask as many questions as are necessary to get the info we need, then we look at the papers and then make a decision on the case based on its facts. The problem is with these forums, is that people ( and i mean no disrespect in saying this) read someone elses thread and then go off gung ho without knowing all the facts of the case.

This is where people go horribly wrong

just my view of course.

[The Debt Star]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

In my expereince posters were actively encouraged to stop paying, not that they read other peoples' threads and copied them per se. OTR it was standard fayre to be advised that DCAs would see you as a 'soft touch' if you continued paying during a CCA dispute.