Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Di,

I can see no reason why not, if the 30th June becopmes fast approching just email the FOS and tell them you are awaiting a response from HFC that is connected to this complaint.

Or email the FOS now and tell them that you have written to HFC for further details and you will be intouch when the reply is recieved.
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Paul,

I am just wondering if DI did go the small claims route whether once the courts have seen the claim if they will fast track it due to the complexity of it?

They may not at the biggining but the judge may direct that route once he has heard the arguments
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Very difficult to call hmmmmmmmm

[Paul210]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Di - as under small claims rules theres no danger in maybe doing a quick LBA to endeavour or even issuing proceedings, only risk would have been adverse costs if not a small claims case. only prob here is the time to do it which given how long youve waited and how far youve come i think its probably a case of in for a penny in for a pound..

not sure what joy you would get from HFC re involvment, i'd expect a general response saying shared resources within group, EPF's responsability etc etc etc. Still if youve got the time it cant hurt to try.

PF - EPF werent customer facing, they were broker only and as such i wouldnt expect they ever had a website.

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Small Claims limit is and/or about to be increased to £15,000

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Cheers PF.

I do have lots of paperwork that was received with a SAR with HFC, they titled "underwriters" as they came together but in bundles if you know what I mean, the endeavour pile was bundled together, Click bundled, HFC and so on.

Do you think now I have extra time to deal with this (the adjudicator have now given until 30 June), that I should write to HFC and ask them directly what their involvement was when the loan was sold to us, and maybe enclose a "copy" not the original customer form.
Its not exactly a complaint for PPI, but just a general query on their involvement.
Just a thought, and see what they come back with. They may even come back with further details of who is responsible for what. "maybe".
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Cheers Paul.

Its not a huge amount, but approx £2K to £3k with interest, so it would meet the criteria under small claims.
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Endeavour does not seem to have a direct website as such, only HFC.

http://www.hfcbank.co.uk/

[Paul210]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Yes, but again because they were not regulated when I taken out the loan, the FSCS are unable to take this on.

Of course, sorry, looks like court action best bet.. have you got any figs which might indicate if under or over small claims limit?

[pompeyfaith]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

One thing is certain they are all giving you the run around and passing the buck, that is bang out of order as it is deliberate and is designed to cover there tracks.

Following on from welcome finance and FSCS they are considering going after the insurer this in a way is no differant in that the broker (click) has folded so HFC and Endeavour are liable.

This quote is a load of bull:

It is important to clarify that whilst HFC Bank owns EPF, the products offered under each brand are different and as such, are subject to differing arbitration services.

If they both offer financial services they are subject to the same arbitration and to you and me they are one and the same just two companies operating under differant trading styles but I bet they both have the same terms and conditions for matching products.

Does anyone have any website address for these companies current or otherwise as I would love to dig into the wayback internet archives and see what comes up.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmB...s.do?sid=78899

204483 - HFC Bank Limited

Current status:Authorised Effective Date:01/12/2001

Camden House West
Parade
Birmingham
West Midlands
B1 3PY


44 0870 0100453
-44 0845 6039319
-
www.hfcbank.co.uk

Financial Services Authority 204483 01/12/2001

Financial Services Authority 01/06/1998 30/11/2001


Registered Name HFC Bank Limited 27/11/2003

Trading Name Beneficial Finance 15/11/2006

Registered Name HFC Bank Plc 01/12/2001 28/11/2003

Financial Services Authority 204483 01/12/2001

Financial Services Authority 01/06/1998 30/11/2001


Endeavour personal finance address....

Camden House
Parade
Birmingham
West Midlands
B1 3PY

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

FSA register search, Principals for Endeavour.

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/register/firmP....do?sid=109031

403514 - Endeavour Personal Finance Limited

Name Firm reference numberEffectiveFromTo

Pinnacle Insurance Plc 110866 14/02/2006 30/09/2008

Hamilton Insurance Company Limited 202671 23/10/2006 01/11/2007

Hamilton Life Assurance Company Limited 139618 14/01/2005 31/10/2007

HFC Bank Limited 204483 01/11/2007 20/05/2010

HFC Bank Limited 204483 31/10/2004 07/12/2004
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might be a silly question and am sure youve considere but have you spoken to FSCS to see if they will pick up re broker being dissolved?

Yes, but again because they were not regulated when I taken out the loan, the FSCS are unable to take this on.

[Paul210]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

might be a silly question and am sure youve considere but have you spoken to FSCS to see if they will pick up re broker being dissolved?

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

I thought FOS looked at anyone with a ccl, not just for their FSA auth period:


The financial businesses we cover include:

• around 30,000 businesses regulated by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) for their retail financial-services activities (you can check whether a business is regulated by the FSA on the FSA's online firm-check service);
• around 80,000 businesses who have a consumer-credit licence issued by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) for their consumer-credit activities (you can check whether a business has a consumer credit licence by contacting the OFT's Consumer Credit Licensing Bureau);

Sterling credit (aka epf) have had a ccl sine 1978:
Application / Licence Details




Licence Number:0008412
Licence Status:Current

Current Applicant / Licensee:

Business NameCompany Registration NumberSterling Credit Limited71242

Categories:

Consumer credit Consumer hire Credit brokerage Credit reference agency Debt adjusting/counselling Debt collecting

Right To Canvass Off Trade Premises:Yes


Trading Name(s) (Current):

Beneficial Beneficial Mortgages Beneficial Sterling Beneficial Sterling Mortgages Endeavour Personal Finance Sterling Bank & Trust Sterling Credit Sterling Loans Sterling Moneyshops The Sterling Credit Group The Sterling Credit Group

Issued Date: 24-Feb-1978
Expiry Date: 07-Mar-2013


Legal Formation:

Charity / Trade Union / Other

I do remember though trying to make Endeavour responsible as well as mentioning the HFC to them, because with the broker dissolved, and this is what it states on part of the letter:

Your comments regarding the Financial Ombudsman Service have been noted: however EPF (Endeavour) did not fall under the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service prior to 6 April 2007. As your complaint relates to an issue that occurred prior to this date, we believe they may not be able to adjudicate on this matter.
It is important to clarify that whilst HFC Bank owns EPF, the products offered under each brand are different and as such, are subject to differing arbitration services.

Yours sincerely
Central Complaints Consumer Finance

[Paul210]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

I thought FOS looked at anyone with a ccl, not just for their FSA auth period:

The financial businesses we cover include:

• around 30,000 businesses regulated by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) for their retail financial-services activities (you can check whether a business is regulated by the FSA on the FSA's online firm-check service);
• around 80,000 businesses who have a consumer-credit licence issued by the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) for their consumer-credit activities (you can check whether a business has a consumer credit licence by contacting the OFT's Consumer Credit Licensing Bureau);

Sterling credit (aka epf) have had a ccl sine 1978:
Application / Licence Details




Licence Number:0008412
Licence Status:Current

Current Applicant / Licensee:

Business NameCompany Registration NumberSterling Credit Limited71242

Categories:

Consumer credit Consumer hire Credit brokerage Credit reference agency Debt adjusting/counselling Debt collecting

Right To Canvass Off Trade Premises:Yes


Trading Name(s) (Current):

Beneficial Beneficial Mortgages Beneficial Sterling Beneficial Sterling Mortgages Endeavour Personal Finance Sterling Bank & Trust Sterling Credit Sterling Loans Sterling Moneyshops The Sterling Credit Group The Sterling Credit Group

Issued Date: 24-Feb-1978
Expiry Date: 07-Mar-2013


Legal Formation:

Charity / Trade Union / Other

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

you need to be carefull when trying to establish the 'underwriter', there are 2 separate types of underwritier in play here, a loan underwriter, someone who reviews your credit file and application and approves you as meeting the criteria for the finance (this would have been done initially by click prior to making you an offer and sending our the cerid agreements and other docs and likely checked prior to payout by an inhouse underwriter at EPF.

The second type of underwriter is in the insurance sense, i.e. being the insurance provider (Hamilton in this case) this is the type i think FOS are referring to as the responsability pre FSA auth under GISC rules could be held to the policy underwriter to ensure the cover provided was suitable.

In any event it would be difficult to argue that HFC were the underwriter, to my mind their only involvement was the admin work prior to payout of the loan, as i have stated this is due to the fact they are a sister company of EPF and likely shared offices/staff. Any work done by HFC will have been done on behalf of EPF and as such EPF are liable as lender, not HFC.

I think the key is to state clearly to FOS that EPF were lender and using vicarious loability precedent you feel they are jointly liable for the sale i the brokers absense.

Cheers Paul

Yes I see your point here.
The issue I do have here is that Endeavour were not regulated, FSA/GISC when the loan was taken out in July 2004, so they would not be able to adjudicate with this one.
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I spoken too soon, email just arrived from the adjudicator and he have given until the 30 of June. So its extended.

Dear Mrs and Mr

Thank you for your email.

I will extend your delaine by 2 weeks. So that gives you until 30 June 2011. If you have any problems meeting this deadline then please let me know

Yours sincerely

M
Adjudicator | Financial Ombudsman Service
South Quay Plaza | 183 Marsh Wall | London | E14 9SR T:

[Paul210]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Cheers Paul.
And for your feedback on this.

I did provide a copy of the letter to the adjudicator from Endeavour the loan lender stating the broker being Click Finance. I see what you mean here though. The adjudicator as you can see could not determine the relationship from one to the other, where paperwork sent clearly shows the broker, the lender, the insurer Hamilton and HFC etc.

As the FOS wanted to take the underwriter direction in my opinion these were HFC, and the Insurer Hamilton, as I do have separate paperwork of the ppi policy via Hamilton too.
It does muddy the waters on who etc.

Your contribution to this is much appreciated, thank you.

you need to be carefull when trying to establish the 'underwriter', there are 2 separate types of underwritier in play here, a loan underwriter, someone who reviews your credit file and application and approves you as meeting the criteria for the finance (this would have been done initially by click prior to making you an offer and sending our the cerid agreements and other docs and likely checked prior to payout by an inhouse underwriter at EPF.

The second type of underwriter is in the insurance sense, i.e. being the insurance provider (Hamilton in this case) this is the type i think FOS are referring to as the responsability pre FSA auth under GISC rules could be held to the policy underwriter to ensure the cover provided was suitable.

In any event it would be difficult to argue that HFC were the underwriter, to my mind their only involvement was the admin work prior to payout of the loan, as i have stated this is due to the fact they are a sister company of EPF and likely shared offices/staff. Any work done by HFC will have been done on behalf of EPF and as such EPF are liable as lender, not HFC.

I think the key is to state clearly to FOS that EPF were lender and using vicarious loability precedent you feel they are jointly liable for the sale i the brokers absense.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Forgot to say as well, I did email the Adjudicator yesterday and said I may need more time, and asked if this was allowed the latest date I have, but up to now he have not got back.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Di, PF,

Endeavour ("EPF") were the lender, they are a subsidiarry of HSBC, HFC are also a subsidiary of HSBC and both have their registered office at the same addredd (The Parade,
Birmingham).

the call from HFC is known in broker circles as a "speak with", this is basically a security check by the lender prior to releasing funds. Its not inconceivable that HFC security dept staff may have also worked on EPF loans, hence the confusion and the fact the speak with sheet (which you have a copy of) is headed with both logo's. To my mind the lender is EPF not HFC altough the close relatrionship between the 2 does muddy the waters somewhat.

Have FOS contacted EPF to ask who brokered the loan (or do you have a letter from them stating this)?, if so that is the proof of an agency between the two, EPF would not accept loans from brokers who were not under agency (I know as I used to work for a broker who used them)

With regard to the terms and conditions, (quote) "I say this because Click acted as a Credit Broker when arranging the loan and Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) for you. In the terms & conditons of your Endeavour Credit Agreement, a copy of which I enclose, it specifically states that Credit Brokers used during the transaction are acting agents of the borrower and Endeavour does not accept any responsibility for any action or any advice provided by the Credit Broker." just because EPF have put a get out clause in their terms doesnt mean it'll stand up in court - see my previus comments re Wilson v Hurstanger. It might be worth bringing this to the adjuducators attention.

Whilst the FOS are usefull on simple cases this one does seem like it was a bit too complicated for them and as a result they have simply made some basic enquiries and given up when it didnt fall into their lap.

PF- if you want to post the draft letter up I'll gladly cast an eye over it and see if theres anything I can contribute.

Hope this helps. Good luck

Cheers Paul.
And for your feedback on this.

I did provide a copy of the letter to the adjudicator from Endeavour the loan lender stating the broker being Click Finance. I see what you mean here though. The adjudicator as you can see could not determine the relationship from one to the other, where paperwork sent clearly shows the broker, the lender, the insurer Hamilton and HFC etc.

As the FOS wanted to take the underwriter direction in my opinion these were HFC, and the Insurer Hamilton, as I do have separate paperwork of the ppi policy via Hamilton too.
It does muddy the waters on who etc.

Your contribution to this is much appreciated, thank you.