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Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

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  • #76
    Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

    Director General Fair Traing v first National

    12. In agreement with the judge and the Court of Appeal, I do not accept the bank's submission on this issue. The regulations, as Professor Sir Guenter Treitel QC has aptly observed (The Law of Contract, 10th ed, 1999, p 248) "are not intended to operate as a mechanism of quality or price control" and regulation 3(2) is of "crucial importance in recognising the parties' freedom of contract with respect to the essential features of their bargain" (ibid, at p 249). But there is an important "distinction between the term or terms which express the substance of the bargain and 'incidental' (if important) terms which surround them" (Chitty on Contracts, 28th ed, 1999, "Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts", p 747, para 15-025). The object of the regulations and the directive is to protect consumers against the inclusion of unfair and prejudicial terms in standard-form contracts into which they enter, and that object would plainly be frustrated if regulation 3(2)(b) were so broadly interpreted as to cover any terms other than those falling squarely within it. In my opinion the term, as part of a provision prescribing the consequences of default, plainly does not fall within it. It does not concern the adequacy of the interest earned by the bank as its remuneration but is designed to ensure that the bank's entitlement to interest does not come to an end on the entry of judgment. I do not think the bank's argument on merger advances its case. It appears that some judges in the past have been readier than I would be to infer that a borrower's covenant to pay interest was not intended to extend beyond the entry of judgment. But even if a borrower's obligation were ordinarily understood to extend beyond judgment even in the absence of an independent covenant, it would not alter my view of the term as an ancillary provision and not one concerned with the adequacy of the bank's remuneration as against the services supplied. It is therefore necessary to address the second question.


    (ummm sorry Scar maybe we should start another thread to discuss the ins and outs of post judgement interest actually)
    #staysafestayhome

    Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

    Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

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    • #77
      Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

      Okay Ame where does the new thread need to be started? I must admit I am finding it very confusing. Does the CCA letter still need to be sent? If the CCA does say that interest can be charged, can they still contest it? Thanks hun!

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      • #78
        Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

        Its okay i'll start one.

        What you need to do is keep being firm with them. She will not be increasing her payments on a whim of theirs - they have sent out a standard - ooo look shes been paying such and such for X months - ask her for more --- letter.

        Yes she needs to send the CCA letter. Don't leave any 'I do not acknowledge this debt' bits in cause thats daft when she does. In it ask for 'and the applicable terms of this loan' just as an aside. I wouldnt mention the interest in the CCA letter just keep it simple.

        Redetermination doesnt need doing yet. the judgement was forthwith and if they wanted to enforce that they would have done so before now - if they make any move in that direction - or depending what the cca throws up - then official court redetermination.

        They should back off - shes still making the original monthly payments isnt she ?
        #staysafestayhome

        Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

        Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

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        • #79
          Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

          She is hun, I wasnt sure about that letter either TBH I think I will tell her to send the one you put up, much simpler, cheers hunni xx

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          • #80
            Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

            Okay hun, think sometimes it best to keep things simple - at least till you know the full situation.
            #staysafestayhome

            Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

            Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

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            • #81
              Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

              Hi this is what has been received since my last post:

              attatchment 1 is from greenhalghs, saying that they have asked Creation for a copy of the CCA.

              attachment 2 is a letter from creation stating that they cannot locate the original CCA but this is a true copy?

              I have tried to scan the CCA onto here but it wont let me for some reason attach it? will try again though.

              In the meantime any thoughts?

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              • #82
                Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                Now what's the betting this is a reconstituted application with ZERO prescribed terms.,

                Try scanning it into a pdf, might work better.

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                • #83
                  Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                  Thanks Curly, the PDF worked!

                  So if they haven't got the original signed CCa can they still enforce it?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                    Bear in mind this is already subject to a charging order so has been enforced.

                    This ISN'T a CCA at all, but the T&C's.
                    To be honest this is what I was hoping for anyway to check the validity of Grennasses claims on post judgement interest.

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                    • #85
                      Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                      Okay, so can they enforce the interest now though? The interest they are asking for?

                      Also whats the next step?

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                      • #86
                        Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                        Give me a change haven't read it all yet

                        Could you possibly scan it at higher res, as it difficult to read.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                          OK so Clause 17 mentions interest after judgement, but as there is no signed executed agreement to prove that this was agreed to then they are on sticky ground with this.

                          The T&C's on their own don't prove anything and in fact are inapplicable as they are clearly NOT part of the signature document.

                          This brings to mind one of my favourite quotes concerning SI 1983/1553

                          Originally posted by Curlyben
                          Under SI 1983/1553 the prescribed terms MUST be within the signature document to be valid, having them on a seperate sheet headed T&C or similar ISN'T acceptable.
                          SI 1983/1553 (6 Signing of agreement) which states that the prescribed terms MUST be within the signature document. (Column 2 schedule 6)
                          This applies to all agreements pre May 2005.
                          So basically this is unenforceable, under 127(3).

                          Just to add to my comments re terms within signature doc.
                          This was covered off in Wilson and another v Hurstanger Ltd [2007] EWCA Civ 299

                          Schedule 1 to the 1983 Regulations sets out the "information to be contained in documents embodying regulated consumer credit agreements". Some of this information mirrors the terms prescribed by Sch 6, but some does not. Contrasting the provisions of the two schedules the Judge said
                          33 In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under s 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127(3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated.
                          As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement. More detailed requirements, which are designed to ensure that the debtor is made aware, so far as possible, of specified information (including information contained in the minimum terms) are to be found in Schedule 1.
                          Last edited by Curlyben; 2nd July 2008, 14:00:PM.

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                          • #88
                            Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                            right so does that mean a n245 then?
                            because it wasnt set at the judgement?

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                              Okay, can anyone tell me what the next move is please. CCCS still say N245, but I am unsure what to tell them to do..........Ideas pretty please.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: Greenhalghs and Creation Financial Services

                                Why are CCCS advising an N245 as this isn't going back to court merely Greenasses demanding more money ?!?!

                                I'm confused, or is it just Sunday.

                                Comment

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