Being very wary of CCA UE advice

[Angry Cat]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

[Quote]
"I/We accept to be bound by the conditions set out overleaf, which may be varied from time to time" [End Quote]

So, where are the inception terms & conditions?

And yes, Reg 7 of the Copy Documents Regs 1983 do apply!

[Amethyst]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Hi All

See attached the incomplete CCA from MBNA that they have sent me and admit is currently unenforceable.

Apologies for the quality, they sent a photocopy which was folded in 3 places which I've then had to scan so didn't come out as well as I'd like.

To me it just looks like an application form but would like some more sage advice on whats missing etc.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Best

Crispy

Yep no prescribed terms.

I am assuming this was a four page leaflet of something as on the second page (declaration page) it says agree to the terms overleaf, and obviously if this was on the reverse of the page where you filled in name and address etc, theres no terms overleaf, so think this must have had something else on the reverse of both those documents, and those two pages were in the middle (I'm so crap at explaining but like an A3 sheet folded into make 4 pages)

So unenforceable as it stands, but all they would have to do is recreate what was on the reverse of that declaration page to make it enforceable (assuming that that was the T&Cs with the prescribed terms in).

[basa48]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Thanks Basa!

Does this put MBNA in a position where they could, at some point, come up with a reconstituted copy? Or would this be pretty much impossible?

To me it looks like they have nothing more than an application form.

Thanks again

Crispy

This is the $64,000 question.

They can certainly use reconstituted for compliance with a s78 request and avoid the consequence of s78(6).

BUT

IMO they need a copy of the executed agreement in its original form (i.e. with sigs and PTs) for proof of proper execution, (s61) especially if the agreement has been varied when Reg 7 comes into play.

The question I need answering is what constitutes a copy of the executed agreement in its original form ??

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Thanks Basa!

Does this put MBNA in a position where they could, at some point, come up with a reconstituted copy? Or would this be pretty much impossible?

To me it looks like they have nothing more than an application form.

Thanks again

Crispy

[basa48]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Hi All

If there is anyone who is good with CCA's and UE would they be able to have a quick look at what MBNA have sent on post #39 please?

No real urgency but I would be intrigued as to why it isn't enforceable.

Thanks
Crispy

1. Prescribed terms?

and

2. Prescribed terms???????

[Angry Cat]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

I could answer but as PT is viewing crispybacon, I will leave him to explain...

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Hi All

If there is anyone who is good with CCA's and UE would they be able to have a quick look at what MBNA have sent on post #39 please?

No real urgency but I would be intrigued as to why it isn't enforceable.

Thanks
Crispy

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Hi All

Quick update on this one.

Received a letter from MBNA today. They have agreeed to freeze overlimit charges while the account 'remains in arrears and over its credit limit'.

When the account returns back within its limit they will add the charges again.

Not much incentive then to get it back within its limit as the overlimit charges are almost as much as the interest!!

Still seem to be making progress with them. Next letter will be to ask them to reconsider freezing interest.

Best

Crispy

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Just a quick bump to see if anyone can have a look at this CCA and see what they think.

Thanks
Crispy

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Hi All

See attached the incomplete CCA from MBNA that they have sent me and admit is currently unenforceable.

Apologies for the quality, they sent a photocopy which was folded in 3 places which I've then had to scan so didn't come out as well as I'd like.

To me it just looks like an application form but would like some more sage advice on whats missing etc.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Best

Crispy

[Nibbler]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

i can tell you all that MBNA are in trouble,

cant say anymore than that yet, but they are in real trouble,

so dont be so quick to dismiss the arguments as being dead and no longer usefull

Is that why they are now sending these out?

Letters of admission

Over the last couple of weeks, I've received letters from MBN$ stating that they cant find the original agreements, and for this reason they will not commence court proceedings. They've also stated that they can still chase for the amount outstanding due to recent court cases (Carey and McGuffick). In the pack, there is also a copy of recent T&Cs and a photocopy of my signed application form.

My question is, due to my lack of trust of CCCs, why are they making this admission and not taking me to court with the backing of an application form? Companies have done this recently and relied on the judges lottery, so are they beginning to realise that an application form is not enough? Whats behind this admission? (btw, having a quick look round this forum, others are receiving the same letter from MBN$

Or do you think it's just unconnected randomness from MBNA?

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

i can tell you all that MBNA are in trouble,

cant say anymore than that yet, but they are in real trouble,

so dont be so quick to dismiss the arguments as being dead and no longer usefull

A while back on the CAG a user was told he would not win a case, and we took his case to trial and slaughtered the lender, post carey too

The problem is the arguments people use, the lack of understanding of the law, and the way the cases are presented from what i see, LIPs trying to be lawyers, it just dont work thats the thing,

you want to win, get a good barrister, they make the difference

I'm not one to wish ill will on someone but if MBNA are in serious trouble I can't say I am sorry to hear this. They have caused us more grief than all other creditors put together (so far at least).

I would hold my hand up to not having a clue where to start as a LIP which is why I was reluctant to go down the unenforceable route in the first place as I didn't want to start an action that I may regret.

Saying that MBNA forced the situation, we wouldn't have even looked at it if they hadn't been so unreasonable.

If it gives us leverage in getting them to agree to a payment plan (as opposed to them getting nothing) then this is a result in itself.

Best

Crispy
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

I'd wait at least until this high court case PT is involved with has judgment handed down as that specifically involves MBNA.

I'll be interested to read about this one. I've been reading up on as many cases that have gone all the way as possible to help understand the arguements and risks for all parties.

Best

Crispy

[Amethyst]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

For now, to stave off court action and the possibility of a stressful court case, I think it is wise to continue payments until there is case law absolute to the contrary.

MBNA v McCullagh is useful but of course is only county court and can only be persuasive and of course MBNA (should) have learnt from it and will take more care with reconstructions (although I realise they don't seem to be doing so as yet). And it is one case, and many more have lost.

I don't think we;re dismissing any arguments, just understanding when arguments are slightly more tenuous than others and recognising that a barrister would be better placed to take on the case and the sustantial risk to the debtors of going forwards without representation on what are in essence technical arguments and not legitimate disputes over monies owed.

I'd wait at least until this high court case PT is involved with has judgment handed down as that specifically involves MBNA.

[pt2537]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

i can tell you all that MBNA are in trouble,

cant say anymore than that yet, but they are in real trouble,

so dont be so quick to dismiss the arguments as being dead and no longer usefull

A while back on the CAG a user was told he would not win a case, and we took his case to trial and slaughtered the lender, post carey too

The problem is the arguments people use, the lack of understanding of the law, and the way the cases are presented from what i see, LIPs trying to be lawyers, it just dont work thats the thing,

you want to win, get a good barrister, they make the difference

[Crispybacon]

Re: Being very wary of CCA UE advice

Cool and agree with what you are doing on this Have you scanned in the appl form copy they've sent?

Hiya

Thanks Amethyst.

If things were to get to court (which at the moment of course they won't!) I want to show that we've been as reasonable as possible about getting things sorted and tried to come to an agreement and that MBNA have been obstructive and unreasonable at every turn.

I'll post the 'CCA' up in a few days (probably the weekend). I don't have access to a scanner at the moment, the one at home is broken so will need to do it next time I can sneak it at the office

Best

Crispy