Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

I understand what you are saying, but the bailiff has no need to fool the debtor into thinking the document is the warrant, because he does not need to present it anyway, at least he does not need to have it on him.

This is something that needs addressing you are right, the debtor should have the opportunity to see that the warrant is correct and active when it is enforced, unfortunately the regulations have created a loophole that says the bailiff can enforce without having it on their person.

Also i notice from various sources that many say the clamping order is "automatically" issued together with the warrant for fine offences under the HMCS. I haven't seen any official confirmation of this, and it would be nice to see if it is true or not.

Could you list these sources, please? A Distress Warrant and a Clamping Order are entirely separate documents.

[gravytrain]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

See the bit I have highlighted in bold type? They don't have to say it is the actual warrant. Their actions alone would be sufficient if the alleged debtor was lead to believe Marston's Disney Store warrant had legal weight or was a genuine court warrant having legal authority. I would agree with your point that a bailiff would be very foolish indeed to continue with enforcement, regardless, when the alleged debtor has asked to see the court warrant. TBH, this is something that needs pursuing with HMCTS High Command.

I understand what you are saying, but the bailiff has no need to fool the debtor into thinking the document is the warrant, because he does not need to present it anyway, at least he does not need to have it on him.

This is something that needs addressing you are right, the debtor should have the opportunity to see that the warrant is correct and active when it is enforced, unfortunately the regulations have created a loophole that says the bailiff can enforce without having it on their person.

Also i notice from various sources that many say the clamping order is "automatically" issued together with the warrant for fine offences under the HMCS. I haven't seen any official confirmation of this, and it would be nice to see if it is true or not.

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

The point I am trying to make(and failing obviously)is that it does no mater that the piece of paper presented to he debtor was manufactured by My Disney or not, as long as they do not specifically say it is he actual warrant. They do not have to have the actual warrant in their possession.

If however the debtor asks to see the actual warrant that may be a different matter, I am suggesting(tentatively) that in order to abide by the strict rule of law the enforcement would have to be suspended until this was done.

See the bit I have highlighted in bold type? They don't have to say it is the actual warrant. Their actions alone would be sufficient if the alleged debtor was lead to believe Marston's Disney Store warrant had legal weight or was a genuine court warrant having legal authority. I would agree with your point that a bailiff would be very foolish indeed to continue with enforcement, regardless, when the alleged debtor has asked to see the court warrant. TBH, this is something that needs pursuing with HMCTS High Command.

[bizzybob]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Just received a reply for one of my emails... I have posted it below for you to view...

Good Morning,

Just to confirm that I am in recept of your e-mail which was sent to us yesterday (17th March 2013 at 12.23). I have seen on your account that you have spoken with the Team Leader in Essex today regarding your concerns.

I can confirm that I have forwarded your e-mail to Marstons Group for them to deal with - I have asked them to deal with this as a priority matter and I have also asked them to confirm to me that A Chapman has an up to date Bailiffs Certificate - to which I am still awaiting a reply.

If you do not receive any contact from Marstons Group - please let me know and I will chase them on your behalf.

Kind Regards.

Mrs Jane Williams
Enforcement Team Leader - CENS

Just hope marstons don't drag heir heels

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Just received a reply for one of my emails... I have posted it below for you to view...

Good Morning,

Just to confirm that I am in recept of your e-mail which was sent to us yesterday (17th March 2013 at 12.23). I have seen on your account that you have spoken with the Team Leader in Essex today regarding your concerns.

I can confirm that I have forwarded your e-mail to Marstons Group for them to deal with - I have asked them to deal with this as a priority matter and I have also asked them to confirm to me that A Chapman has an up to date Bailiffs Certificate - to which I am still awaiting a reply.

If you do not receive any contact from Marstons Group - please let me know and I will chase them on your behalf.

Kind Regards.

Mrs Jane Williams
Enforcement Team Leader - CENS

At least that's something. Keep us informed, please.

[kim481]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Just received a reply for one of my emails... I have posted it below for you to view...

Good Morning,

Just to confirm that I am in recept of your e-mail which was sent to us yesterday (17th March 2013 at 12.23). I have seen on your account that you have spoken with the Team Leader in Essex today regarding your concerns.

I can confirm that I have forwarded your e-mail to Marstons Group for them to deal with - I have asked them to deal with this as a priority matter and I have also asked them to confirm to me that A Chapman has an up to date Bailiffs Certificate - to which I am still awaiting a reply.

If you do not receive any contact from Marstons Group - please let me know and I will chase them on your behalf.

Kind Regards.

Mrs Jane Williams
Enforcement Team Leader - CENS

[bizzybob]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

The point I am trying to make(and failing obviously)is that it does no mater that the piece of paper presented to he debtor was manufactured by My Disney or not, as long as they do not specifically say it is he actual warrant. They do not have to have the actual warrant in their possession.

If however the debtor asks to see the actual warrant that may be a different matter, I am suggesting(tentatively) that in order to abide by the strict rule of law the enforcement would have to be suspended until this was done.

I would agree with that viewpoint, however as we know, marstons would beg to differ, so on it goes around in circles with no definitive answer.

[gravytrain]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

You have a valid point. However, as we know from experience, Marstons use bullying and intimidation to overcome the matter of the warrant. Although the court warrant would exist, Marstons would have some explaining to do if their Walt Disney warrant was subsequently challenged in the light of actions by bailiffs that were not authorised by the court warrant.

The court warrant is the bailiff's protection and compliance with its conditions is paramount if the bailiff is not to have their actions come back and smack them in the mouth. Not having it in their possession at the time of attending an alleged fine defaulter's home does raise questions of probity and compliance with the law.

The point I am trying to make(and failing obviously)is that it does no mater that the piece of paper presented to he debtor was manufactured by My Disney or not, as long as they do not specifically say it is he actual warrant. They do not have to have the actual warrant in their possession.

If however the debtor asks to see the actual warrant that may be a different matter, I am suggesting(tentatively) that in order to abide by the strict rule of law the enforcement would have to be suspended until this was done.

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

It is all very woolly.

It seems to me that the debtor would have to ask to see the actual warrant, and if the bailiff did not comply he could not continue until he did, so in theory any levy made without compliance would be unlawful. IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES

However if the debtor did not ask to see the actual warrant, and the bailiff continued with he levy, it would be perfectly legal.

You have a valid point. However, as we know from experience, Marstons use bullying and intimidation to overcome the matter of the warrant. Although the court warrant would exist, Marstons would have some explaining to do if their Walt Disney warrant was subsequently challenged in the light of actions by bailiffs that were not authorised by the court warrant.

The court warrant is the bailiff's protection and compliance with its conditions is paramount if the bailiff is not to have their actions come back and smack them in the mouth. Not having it in their possession at the time of attending an alleged fine defaulter's home does raise questions of probity and compliance with the law.

[gravytrain]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

This is from the excellent Bailiff Advice Online website and touches some of the issues raised on this thread

What is a Clamping Order?
If the bailiff is collecting an unpaid Magistrates Court Fine, he will have been provided with a Clamping Order issued under the Courts Act 2003.




The importance of seeing a copy of the warrant.
It is important to note that the Contract between HMCS and the relevant bailiff companies provides that an Enforcement Officer cannot enforce a Distress Warrant against you if it is more than 180 days old !!
If a bailiff has visited you to enforce a distress warrant for an unpaid Magistrates Court Fine there are legal provisions concerning the bailiff showing you the actual Warrant. We have provided details of the Statutory Legislation concerning this at the end of this section which provides that:
• “A person executing a Warrant of Distress must either show the warrant to the person against whom the distress is levied, or state where and how it can be inspected.
• It is not essential that the warrant be in the possession of the person executing it at the time of execution.

[gravytrain]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Knowing marstons MO, though even if a debtor asked to see the warrant, and the bailiff refused or didn't comply, he would doubtless carry on and enforce whatever, mumbling about the right of entry, mumble DCVA mumble, pay up and at no point would the debtor see any sign of a warrant at that time. This needs testing in court.

Yes this is the way that bailiffs have always operated, you have to be quite a strong person to quote regulations to a six foo 18 stone bailiff who says he is going to take your goods. Which is why of course the whole bailiff industry is unfair and should be confined to the scrapheap along with flogging and debtors prison.

[bizzybob]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

It is all very woolly.

It seems to me that the debtor would have to ask to see the actual warrant, and if the bailiff did not comply he could not continue until he did, so in theory any levy made without compliance would be unlawful. IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES

However if the debtor did not ask to see the actual warrant, and the bailiff continued with he levy, it would be perfectly legal.

Knowing marstons MO, though even if a debtor asked to see the warrant, and the bailiff refused or didn't comply, he would doubtless carry on and enforce whatever, mumbling about the right of entry, mumble DCVA mumble, pay up and at no point would the debtor see any sign of a warrant at that time. This needs testing in court.

[gravytrain]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Would Marstons have complied if the produce their Walt Disney edit rather than the original as sent though?

It is all very woolly.

It seems to me that the debtor would have to ask to see the actual warrant, and if the bailiff did not comply he could not continue until he did, so in theory any levy made without compliance would be unlawful. IN THESE CIRCUMSTANCES

However if the debtor did not ask to see the actual warrant, and the bailiff continued with he levy, it would be perfectly legal.

[bluebottle]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Yes its section 52.8, 2 (c) criminal procedure rules part 52(Enforcement of fines)

The person must show the warrant if that person has it.

If the defendant asks he must arrange for the debtor to see the warrant if he does not have it.(sic)

Many thanks for that.

Whilst the provision you have highlighted is open to interpretation, for practical reasons, any certificated bailiff who turned up on someone's doorstep, claiming to be enforcing a fine on behalf of HMCTS and could not produce a copy of the actual court warrant there and then would be on a sticky wicket.

The reason I say this is twofold -

a. If the police were to turn up and those officers who attended were switched on and asked to see written authority in the form of the court warrant, which the bailiff could not produce, the bailiff would be swiftly sent on their way on the toe of a police officer's boot;
b. The bailiff, potentially, exposes themselves to accusations of an offence of Attempted Burglary Artifice (aka Distraction Burglary).

TBH, any bailiff who turns up without a copy of the actual court warrant in their possession is asking for trouble and an alleged fine defaulter would, IMHO, be within their rights to refuse to deal with the bailiff until such time as they produce a copy of the actual court warrant to prove they did, in fact, have authority to act on behalf of the court they were claiming to be acting for.

[bizzybob]

Re: Marston bailiff clamped my car!!

Yes its section 52.8, 2 (c) criminal procedure rules part 52(Enforcement of fines)

The person must show the warrant if that person has it.

If the defendant asks he must arrange for the debtor to see the warrant if he does not have it.(sic)

Would Marstons have complied if the produce their Walt Disney edit rather than the original as sent though?