A joke

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

Yes I was aware of the orginal debt. This debt is against my limited company not me.
Not that I am aware of
No
Yes when HCC came around the first time
Yes they got a £1000 cash out of an £1800 bill

[SpringerSpaniel]

Re: A joke

Have you seen a copy of the CCJ issued by the court concerned ?

[ploddertom]

Re: A joke

No-one sees to say anything about my course of action outside of the police side. This man has done wrong and he needs to be brought to book. I have contacted the court which was one piece of advice I was given. What did they say? I have contacted the company who started all this off in the first place and HCC themselves. Have you raised this as a complaint with them? What else can i do? Is this course of action wrong, right, in between? Trading Standards, OFT what? I would like to challenge their charges and the implicit threat of "if you don't pay this this could mean criminal proceedings" - no it won't - it is a commercial debt.
My depression, and it is creeping back on me again, I will deal with I just would like something practical I can do to sort this out.

Going back to basics.
Were you aware of the original debt?
Did you receive any documents when the CCJ process started?
Have you been in touch with the Court since?
Have you been in touch with the Claimant since?
have you made an offer of payment to anyone?

Re: A joke

Patchie if you want to talk/offload etc about depression and so on we have a Mental Health area http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...lth-Depression you can post away there as much as you want.

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

I realise that it is a he said she said thing that was why I was reluctant. My son's G/F who i have just seen suggests that i log it with the Police and her words were the same he said she said, but logging it will put it in the system so i will do that.
No-one sees to say anything about my course of action outside of the police side. This man has done wrong and he needs to be brought to book. I have contacted the court which was one piece of advice I was given. I have contacted the company who started all this off in the first place and HCC themselves. What else can i do? Is this course of action wrong, right, in between? Trading Standards, OFT what? I would like to challenge their charges and the implicit threat of "if you don't pay this this could mean criminal proceedings" it is a commercial debt.
My depression, and it is creeping back on me again, I will deal with I just would like something practical I can do to sort this out.

[bluebottle]

Re: A joke

I'm not too sure what we are trying to do here. I can certainly help with you trying to sort the CCJ & HCEO problems out. HCC are the "new kids" on the block so to speak, they use a Lincs address coupled with a London phone no - no doubt to give some sort of credence. Looking at their details it appears they only do debt collecting & HCEO duties so would assume they have to have both a Credit Licence & Data Protection Registration. As far as their employess are concerned they will not operating as "Certificated" Bailiffs even though they may hold a Certificate so a complaint to the Court will not be an option.

As said the problem of the issues raised are down to he said she said territory and the difficulty is compounded by there being 2 of them and 1 of you and I don't doubt they will raise the old chestnut from SECTION 99 THE COURTS ACT 2003, Schedule 7 where para 5 states:
Constable’s duty to assist enforcement officers

5.	It is the duty of every constable, at the request of— a. an enforcement officer, or b. a person acting under the officer’s authority, to assist the officer or that person in the execution of a writ.

There is a caveat to Section 99, Courts Act 2003, Sch.7, para 5, which doesn't appear in legislation, but is part of the policy of individual police forces and goes along the lines of that a police officer who receives a request from an HCEO to assist them must first ensure that the HCEO has lawful authority to act, that they have lawful authority to be at the premises or dwelling where they request assistance to execute a writ and that they must ensure they do not allow an HCEO to commit an offence at law or allow themselves to become involved in the commission of an offence at law. Each police force will have its own version of this, but the policy is determined by the Chief Constable of each of the 43 police areas in England and Wales. The British Transport Police and Ministry of Defence Police may have their own policies on HCEOs encroaching on land/property under the control of Network Rail and land/property under the ownership/tenure of the Ministry of Defence. I cannot comment as to what the situation is in Scotland or Northern Ireland.

[ploddertom]

Re: A joke

I'm not too sure what we are trying to do here. I can certainly help with you trying to sort the CCJ & HCEO problems out. HCC are the "new kids" on the block so to speak, they use a Lincs address coupled with a London phone no - no doubt to give some sort of credence. Looking at their details it appears they only do debt collecting & HCEO duties so would assume they have to have both a Credit Licence & Data Protection Registration. As far as their employess are concerned they will not operating as "Certificated" Bailiffs even though they may hold a Certificate so a complaint to the Court will not be an option.

As said the problem of the issues raised are down to he said she said territory and the difficulty is compounded by there being 2 of them and 1 of you and I don't doubt they will raise the old chestnut from SECTION 99 THE COURTS ACT 2003, Schedule 7 where para 5 states:
Constable’s duty to assist enforcement officers

5.	It is the duty of every constable, at the request of— a. an enforcement officer, or b. a person acting under the officer’s authority, to assist the officer or that person in the execution of a writ.

[bluebottle]

Re: A joke

I am not sure why but I am go to talk to his girlfriend who is a CID officer what i can do.I do realise that they will deny it and that is probably why i did not say anything. I have written to the OFT and I am considering a letter to the Trading Standards where the company is based. HCC never acknowledged anything. Indeed i had no contact from then until their man walked in my shop. But these two knew so i presume the company knows as well. The chances are they are they may think I am faking being mentally ill and trying to call my bluff. Tough luck boys I have medical proof enough and enough character witnesses to prove it. I will see what my son's G/f comes up with.
I think that if enough stink is raised things will get sorted out. The company who started this I have told. They have been told that this was done in their name so they don't want that to happen. Also i can sort out the debt without any problem with them now so they don't need a collections company. The Court i think will take a very dim view of this.
I just want to stand up to these people and take them to task using brains and the law to beat them and hopefully add the the growing evidence that these collection companies, though needed i suspect, need to change what they do.I did read that 50% of people who came in contact with bailiffs felt suicidal and I do suspect that some may well of gone beyond the strong negative feeling of suicide and done something physical. Believe me you do not want to go there - I have a few times and it is the worst feeling you can ever have. And this is despite seeing two people, on separate occasions, commit suicide in front of trains - it should put you off but it doesn't.

I know what you mean about Suicide by Train, Patchie. A former train driver I know ended up in a psychiatric unit after being involved in one too many of these incidents. Thankfully, he is now a lot better and able to get on with his life. During my time in the police, I came into contact with officers from British Transport Police who have to deal with such incidents and, you're right, it does have an effect. These days, officers who attend suicide incidents on the railway are given counselling to help them deal with what they have had to deal with.

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

I am not sure why but I am go to talk to his girlfriend who is a CID officer what i can do.I do realise that they will deny it and that is probably why i did not say anything. I have written to the OFT and I am considering a letter to the Trading Standards where the company is based. HCC never acknowledged anything. Indeed i had no contact from then until their man walked in my shop. But these two knew so i presume the company knows as well. The chances are they are they may think I am faking being mentally ill and trying to call my bluff. Tough luck boys I have medical proof enough and enough character witnesses to prove it. I will see what my son's G/f comes up with.
I think that if enough stink is raised things will get sorted out. The company who started this I have told. They have been told that this was done in their name so they don't want that to happen. Also i can sort out the debt without any problem with them now so they don't need a collections company. The Court i think will take a very dim view of this.
I just want to stand up to these people and take them to task using brains and the law to beat them and hopefully add the the growing evidence that these collection companies, though needed i suspect, need to change what they do.I did read that 50% of people who came in contact with bailiffs felt suicidal and I do suspect that some may well of gone beyond the strong negative feeling of suicide and done something physical. Believe me you do not want to go there - I have a few times and it is the worst feeling you can ever have. And this is despite seeing two people, on separate occasions, commit suicide in front of trains - it should put you off but it doesn't.

[Bill-K]

Re: A joke

I don't usually get involved with bailiff issues as it isn't my area, Patchie., but this is such an appalling story it almost beggars belief. I bow to the knowledge of the others here, but I am surprised that you didn't involve your son in this earlier. I believe that you clearly informed the bailiffs AND HCC of your mental condition - and therefore of your vulnerability. Yet it appears that HCC sent the same two bailiffs after you despite this.

Now, I'm sure there is no end of criminal law which can be applied, as Bluebottle and Teaboy have posted - but these guys are not that thick, and they knew what they were doing when they got you out of the shop and away from any witnesses. I've been driving club-night taxis for 5 years, and my experience tells me that unless you have proof of what took place outside - or witnesses to it - then it didn't happen. I don't mean I disbelieve you - but you could get the police involved and get an incident number, and the plods will interview the bailiffs and you, and get two different stories. It's simply their word against yours, and they won't be fazed by this at all - they are used to it, I'm sure. The police won't prosecute, and the court won't be able to act on your unfounded allegations. I still think you should report it as a crime, so that it gets logged into the system. There is also a chance that the bailiffs might say something which proves they were lying to the police, but you will need other evidence to show this. Perhaps they might say something which contradicts the official notices issued to you, or the various charges they have made for their 'work.' But I wouldn't want to raise your hopes of getting this slung out of court purely on the basis of an unsupported allegation.

If you want this slung out of court, then I think you need to do as Springer suggests, and start a separate thread for this - to avoid confusing what I believe are two entirely separate issues. PlodderTom has, I believe, specific experience of dealing with these issues in court, and will be able to help you there. His questions need clear answers, and I think that aspect of the matter can be dealt with properly if it is separated from the problem we have here, which is the appalling conduct of HCC and its bailiffs.

What I believe MIGHT be of use is the FACT that you are vulnerable, and that you informed HCC of this. You should, I am sure, have a clear record of HCC's written response(a) and/or acknowledgement of this fact. The FACT that HCC subsequently sent these thugs after you puts them in a very difficult position, which I am sure the others here will be able to explain. This should then stop any further harrassment, I believe. It may also transpire that these thugs are not properly registered or licensed, in which case, you could at least cause them some pain - and also HCC for employing them and flouting the debt collection regulations.

If this has caused you to shut down your business, then that may well be another reason to pursue HCC. I am sure that the main reason why bailiffs are forbidden from harrassing vulnerable people is precisely because it can ruin their entire lives - and even lead them to take their own lives. I think you need to gather up every little piece of evidence you have, and continue to gather it - to show that you are being harrassed unlawfully. I doubt if you will feel like it, but it might even be worth considering giving them another chance to hang themselves by visiting your shop. Only this time, you get your son and a colleague to pose as customers - and you get some good quality audio/video footage.

I'm sorry if my post - or my suggestions - might go against other posters here, and I bow to their superior knowledge of the law. But we are talking about realities here (or so I believe) - and I really don't think a criminal prosecution is actually a realistic prospect here, so far, given the evidence we have. I feel that some of the suggestions here may raise Patchie's hopes without really giving him much chance of a successful outcome. I hope I haven't offended anyone by spurting out my unlearnéd opinion here - but this is one helluva horror story - and I just had to say my piece and air my feelings on the matter. LOL - I'll crawl back into the undergrowth, now !!!

[SpringerSpaniel]

Re: A joke

If there are problems with how the judgement was obtained, eg it was a judgement in default which you owuld have wanted to defend - or you wanted to exert a right of set-off, you may want to post again, possibly on a separate thread, for advice/discussion about the underlying dispute ratehr than the behaviour of the bailiffs themselves.

[teaboy2]

Re: A joke

God i wish it would be possible to see these morons being arrested on video tape, that would make me smile lol

[bluebottle]

Re: A joke

The other matter that needs to be addressed is the fitness of these two morons to act as bailiffs. I would recommend the police do what they can first, obtain a copy of any report from the force solicitor and then send a letter to the District Judge(s) at the court(s) that issued the bailiffs' certificates. You will need to establish whether the DJ requires you to submit a Form 4 complaint. Due to the circumstances, do not be surprised if the bailiffs suffer the cancellation of their certificates without a Form 4 complaint and without a hearing. This happened to a Ross & Roberts bailiff earlier this year. In that case, their behaviour was deplorable, a view expressed by the police who attended.

With regard to asking your eldest son, who is a policeman, to intervene, as a retired policeman myself, it might be better if you reported the matter. If your son became personally involved in the case, my fear is that it could have an adverse effect. However, knowing that the police look after their own, I would not be surprised if your eldest son's colleagues make sure these two morons get what's coming to them.

[teaboy2]

Re: A joke

That i understand but i cannot recall any paperwork but it maybe around. The fact that I owe money is not a problem it is what they actually did that is the problem. To produce a knife and ask if i do I need it after the last time they were around is that the sign of a professional doing his job? It is their conduct that bothers me.

As your son is a serving police officer then you are in a great position to have these idiots arrested for what they did! I am sure if i was a police officer and someone did to my father what they did you that i would not hesitate to arrest the idiots striaght away and throw them in a cell.

[Patchie]

Re: A joke

That i understand but i cannot recall any paperwork but it maybe around. The fact that I owe money is not a problem it is what they actually did that is the problem. To produce a knife and ask if i do I need it after the last time they were around is that the sign of a professional doing his job? It is their conduct that bothers me.