OFT Test Case - as it happens

[Amethyst]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

agreed.... onwards and upwards eh.

Does this mean the missing pages can not be used as evidence? Or is the Court going to bend the rules for the Banks, yet again?

Good point..... I don't think anything can be gained by not allowing evidence to be submitted late so if anything they should just get a slapped wrist and get on with things as quickly as possible. The banks need to realise they aren't in the playground anymore.

[Budgie]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Many thanks to the guys and gals who attended the first day and for the excellent court reports. Keep up the good work.
I am hoping to get up there one day next week, hopefully I will get to meet some of you on the day.

Observation :-

During the next part of his submission the QC recommended to the judge that the volume of historical terms & conditions was such that for the judge to consider all of them in detail would be to focus on the key aspects of them. he said that the OFT would concentrate on current T&C’s and it was for the FSA to look at the historical ones.

This appears to be an attempt by Rabinowitz to deflect the Judges interest away from historical terms and Conditions. As most of our claims are based upon our breaches of historical terms and conditions the coverage of these in the test case is of high importance to us especially with respect to the "penalty at common law" issue. Indeed, contrary to what Rabinowitz states, it is clear that the OFT WILL refer to the historical terms in it's defence to the Banks Counterclaim's ( see Para 87 of the OFT response ). It will be interesting to see if the other Banks also try to deflect interest away from the historical terms and conditions.

[agnes]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

I must say I am surprised at the lack of attendance, I also thought there would me a huge amount of support up there, least of all in the opening days, to bring as much attention to the media, and general public, (as this effects everyone in this country )as is given to minority causes ! I am sorry not to be of use myself. no excuses!! ( South Wales?? is that one)

[Amethyst]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Well there doesn't seem to be too much problem getting passes in the the feed rooms - and on monday theres even more space.....so anyone who can, should go, sounds like its a great experience.

[Budgie]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

The issue of the T&C’s being in ‘’plain inteligible language’’ was raised and became the most interesting exchange so far. After harping on about the balance that was needed to be struck between plain intelegable language and concise wording the judge intervened with the OFT’s view that far from being in plain inteligable language, they were ‘’in no language at all’’.Justice Smith went on to give an example: If aspects of T&C’s are subsequently defined in a leaflet then the T&C’s are in no language at all. Therefore ‘’the question needs to be asked, does a term need to be made clear that it is in fact a term?’’. It was clear he thought it does.This was significant in that the judge was clearly on the OFT’s side on this point and it prompted wry smiles and nods of approval from Stephen and Tom.

Above must be the highlight of Day One and proves that the judge has done his homework. Also I agree that the Judge, at this stage anyway, appears to be favouring the OFT on this crucial point.

[Budgie]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Hi Amethyst,

How and where do people obtain the passes, can they be obtained in advance or on the day only? Is it recommended to arrive before a certain time to guarantee obtaining a pass?
Some guidelines would be appreciated from those who have already attended, thanks in advance!

Budgie

[Amethyst]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Hi Budgie

Its on the day only, and is on a first come first served basis. So turning up at daft am seems the best bet.

When the lunch recess is I expect EXC will look in and tell you a bit more.

And be great if you can gt down there for one of the days.

Love

Ame

[Al59]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Fantastic work guys, Will be checking every day while I'm away

[EXC]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

just to answer a few points:

My comments re CAG were over the top they way they were put but the point remains.

Passes are easy to get. they are avaailable from IDRC reception at 8am on the day, the hearing starts at 10.30. Passes are all day.

Very exciting morning with lots of disagreement on how the case will continue so RBS has made know more progress on their submission.

Big news is judge wants to advise county courts on stays if OFT win the hearing so
it could be lifted after judgement

[Budgie]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Big news is judge wants to advise county courts on stays if OFT win the hearing so it could be lifted after judgement

Am getting to like this Judge more and more each day, and we're only on 2nd day. LOL

Thanks for info re passes EXC :okay:

[thephoenix]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Although this may sound like a bias statement, I do tend to look at events from all angles and from both sides.

I BELIEVE WE HAVE A JUDGE WHO IS NOT SCARED TO VIEW HIS OPINION OF LAW.
I KNOW THATS WHAT A JUDGE IS THERE TO DO BUT HISTORY HAS SHOWN THAT NOT ALL JUDGES HAVE THE SAME OPINION OF THE SAME LAW.
THE BANKING INDUSTRY AS WE KNOW IT COULD CHANGE CONSIDERABLY ON THE INTERPRETATION OF EVIDENCE AND APPLYING THIS TO COMMON LAW.
ECONOMICAL STABILITY OF THIS COUNTRY MAY BE AFFECTED AS THE BANKS MAY LOSE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF POUNDS ON ONE JUDGMENT.

LETS JUST HOPE THE JUDGE ALSO SEE'S FURTHER INTO THE FUTURE AND NOT JUST A JUDGMENT IN THIS CASE. BANKS HAVE THREATENED TO RE-COOP ANY LOSSES FROM PENALTY CHARGE BY WAY OF CHARGES FOR OTHER SO CALLED SERVICES AND WARN THE BANKS (SHOULD THEY LOSE) THAT RETALIATION WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.


Just my thought for the day. going for a lie down now. phewwww

[TUTTSI]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

I am up in the City on Fridays and met up with EXC at lunchtime and went back to the LB bunker at the hotel. EXC convinced me to pop in to the test case even if it were for 30 minutes. It was so interesting I stayed 45 minutes and had to wrench myself away and get back to work before I was really missed.

It was easy enough to get a pass out of 25 seats for the public only half were
taken. The press seats were I could see from the screen were many empty seats. Strangley no press outside like there were yesterday.

I only stayed 45 minutes, but it was quite clear that the Judge has a strong hold on this case and will not be bullied by Mr Rabinowitz, Barrister for RBOS. there were times when everyone laughed and then it was straight back to business. This Mr Rabinowitz seems to be drawing this case out and I noticed the Judge on a few occasions told him to move on.

It appears that he said in the morning session that if the OFT win all bank claims that have been stayed would be lifted immediately. I draw comfort from this and only hope now that he agrees with the OFT.

The OFT will go last in these proceedings, I thought this was strange, but having asked I am told that it will give the OFT the advantage at the end to make the closing case and to squash the defence. I hope that this is right.

At the time I was there they were trying to define 'TERM' I did not really understand what they were referring to as they talked in legal jargin a lot of the time.

If anyone has the time to go I think that they would find it very interesting and very easy to get in and should not be deterred.

DSxx

[Budgie]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

ECONOMICAL STABILITY OF THIS COUNTRY MAY BE AFFECTED AS THE BANKS MAY LOSE BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF POUNDS ON ONE JUDGMENT.

Errrrr isn't it more relevant that we consider that the Banks would not be losing their own money. THEY WOULD BE GIVING IS BACK OUR OWN MONEY - PLUS INTEREST.

I believe the UK economy would receive an unprecidented lift WHEN the OFT win. Consumers with money in their pockets usually spend it on things, thereby indirectly boosting the economy. The Banks will also have to rationalise their charging systems in line with whatever new regulations are forthcoming and an open playing field will develop, Customers will move accounts to Banks offering the fairest charging system.

[thephoenix]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Errrrr isn't it more relevant that we consider that the Banks would not be losing their own money. THEY WOULD BE GIVING IS BACK OUR OWN MONEY - PLUS INTEREST.

I believe the UK economy would receive an unprecidented lift WHEN the OFT win. Consumers with money in their pockets usually spend it on things, thereby indirectly boosting the economy. The Banks will also have to rationalise their charging systems in line with whatever new regulations are forthcoming and an open playing field will develop, Customers will move accounts to Banks offering the fairest charging system.

Although this case is about a point of law, it will have an effect on the economic structure of the UK.
It's not just a case of bank losing money or banks actually refunding money that is not rightfully there's.
The charging structure, I believe has been around since banking began, or at least a very very long time therefore it's has always been a natural so called income generator for the banks, as we all know.

With the credit crunch worldwide and the test case, the banking infrastructure will lose hundreds of billions of pounds of revenue. Whether we believe they are losing it or having to pay it back, that is a fact.

Now as consumers we need to be protected from the institution that is already causing much hardship to many many people. They WILL try to re-coop losses, RBS are already in trouble on the stock market and I'm sure many others will follow. An income stream will soon disappear if (when) they lose this monumentus battle .

All I'm saying is the judge who is heading procedings is not scared to ensure the LAW is applied in it's correct manner, even if it means an uncertain future for many banks. The law is the law and if the courts will not uphold it then we are all in trouble.

Hopefully the OFT are drawing confidence from the judge in the hot seat and their closing statement in 2-3 weeks time, will dispense all concerns over the, so far smooth and talented QC delivering the defence for the RBS.

Long may the judge be strong and in control.

[Budgie]

Re: Day 1 - OFT Test Case - as it happens

Totally agree Phoenix.

But let's get the result we want first and then worry about the repurcussions afterwards. I am sure that OFT are on cloud 9 at the moment with the initial tell tale indicators regarding the Judge's sympathies. There are bound to be some set backs for us over the next couple of weeks as the Banks let their big legal guns loose. However after re-reading the OFT's response to the Banks defence and conterclaim again this afternoon and hearing the latest updates from the LB guys and gals at the test case it's boosted my confidence no end. I for one will deffo try to be at the venue for the OFT's presentation in a couple of weeks time. I think it will be the event of the year, if not the decade and I want to be there to witness it for myself.