Unversity Fees Payback

[Zjc]

Hello

I'm wondering if people can advised. I have worked for an employer for 3 and a half years now and originally started on a programme which involved them paying for my degree.

I completed the degree study last year and signed a new contract for a full time role with the company.

The time has now come to move on and there is a dispute over fees.

In my original contract signed in October 2011 there was a clause regarding fees that stated they would be required to be paid back over a sliding scale based on "the date of payment" no date of this payment was given. The sliding scale was over a 3 year period so if date of payment was the date they paid my fees to university and assuming this was at the start of my course then this 3 years would now be ended. As this date isn't specified though they are saying they were paid later.

The amount was also not provided in terms of the total value of the fees.

The second contract I signed in September 2014 had no mention of any fees at all.

I'm wondering if anyone can advise where I stand? In my eyes "date of payment" seems like a lose term to me as they could say they paid at any point which could be of detriment to me.

Also, an amount has never been specified for the fees in terms of the total amount.

To add to this although not in my contract my wage was subsidised heavily during my first 3 years when compared to the average salary for the job I was doing not sure if this adds anything to the debate.

Any help anyone can provide would be great! In my eyes the terms seem too lose but I'm no expert!

Thanks in advance
ZJC

[Amethyst]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Often these kind of contracts are for a certain period after completing the qualification, which makes more sense and people know where they stand.

So you should ask them for details of the payments made ( amounts and dates). I know I pay for each module separately at the beginning of each year so could be the 3rd year was paid for in October 13 if you finished in June 2014, so that portion would tie you in to Oct 16. Would you be able to type out the actual term in the contract in full ? How much are they asking for and how does the sliding scale work.

[des8]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

...... and if the original contract has been replaced by a new contract can the terms of the original contract still be enforced?

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

These training agreements are usually, in my experience, "side agreements" rather than being incorporated in the main contract of employment so the signing of the new contract of employment would not impact on the side agreement.

As Amethyst says, they are usually expressed as running from the date of completion of the course of study, which is logical, but it sounds as though yours is particularly clumsily drafted.

You must surely see from the employers point of view, they pay for your training for 3 years and then after six months bugger off!?

The issue of your salary being "heavily subsidised" is not relevant in my view. Was the qualificatoin something that was required in order to carry out the profession?

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Often these kind of contracts are for a certain period after completing the qualification, which makes more sense and people know where they stand.

So you should ask them for details of the payments made ( amounts and dates). I know I pay for each module separately at the beginning of each year so could be the 3rd year was paid for in October 13 if you finished in June 2014, so that portion would tie you in to Oct 16. Would you be able to type out the actual term in the contract in full ? How much are they asking for and how does the sliding scale work.

Thanks for coming back to me. This is what was detailed in my original contract;

Reimbursement of training fees by the Student to the Company:
The company reserves the right to recover from you some or all costs incurred by the company if your contract is terminated for the following reasons:
You have given notice to cease employment
Morrisons has terminated your contract of employment (other than by redundancy)
Morrisons has terminated this training contract for failing to meet certain requirements.

Costs will be recovered on the following basis:

Date of termination	Fee Recovery
Within 24 months of date of payment	100% of costs
Within 36 months of date of payment	66% of costs
Within 48 months of date of payment	33% of costs

Fees recovered will include all of the sponsorship costs associated with the full course of studies undertaken.

An amount has never been disclosed and still hasn't yet. Futhermore the same applies to the Date of Payment which hasn't been communicated at any point.

I have since signed a new contract and no fee's were mentioned at this stage and this was at the end of my degree.

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

These training agreements are usually, in my experience, "side agreements" rather than being incorporated in the main contract of employment so the signing of the new contract of employment would not impact on the side agreement.

As Amethyst says, they are usually expressed as running from the date of completion of the course of study, which is logical, but it sounds as though yours is particularly clumsily drafted.

You must surely see from the employers point of view, they pay for your training for 3 years and then after six months bugger off!?

The issue of your salary being "heavily subsidised" is not relevant in my view. Was the qualificatoin something that was required in order to carry out the profession?

The terms are very loosly worded with "date of payment" being the period in which they define as when they can cliam the fees back from.

I understand it fully from the companies very, the main thing that upsets me is an amount nor any other terms have ever been specified which leaves me at a bit of an unfair advantage as ive never known what the consequences were and they were never made clear to me.

When other people on the same course have asked for information on fee's they company wouldn't provide the amount.

[Amethyst]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Who did you take the course through ?

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Who did you take the course through ?

Course with with a University but was funded by the company so they paid the University the fees.

Courses started in October 2011 and finished in October 2014.

[Amethyst]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Okay it is bit tricky to do some digging ( eg. when fees are paid and how much they are) without any details.

Could really do with the terms of the contract ( pm if you prefer) and the uni the course was taken through.

[Amethyst]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Costs will be recovered on the following basis:
Date of termination Fee Recovery
Within 24 months of date of payment 100% of costs
Within 36 months of date of payment 66% of costs
Within 48 months of date of payment 33% of costs

The contract clearly states XX months from date of payment - xx% - on a sliding scale - therefore they must disclose the date of payment when requesting a refund of fees. If they don't disclose date of payment there is no way of working out how long you are tied to the company for after concluding the degree course.

This also seems to be an across company issue with other students/employees not being told date of payments either.

So formal letter to the employer requesting the dates of payment as the contract relies on them?

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Costs will be recovered on the following basis:
Date of termination Fee Recovery
Within 24 months of date of payment 100% of costs
Within 36 months of date of payment 66% of costs
Within 48 months of date of payment 33% of costs

The contract clearly states XX months from date of payment - xx% - on a sliding scale - therefore they must disclose the date of payment when requesting a refund of fees. If they don't disclose date of payment there is no way of working out how long you are tied to the company for after concluding the degree course.

This also seems to be an across company issue with other students/employees not being told date of payments either.

So formal letter to the employer requesting the dates of payment as the contract relies on them?

Thanks for the information, I will request the date of payment from them. Should I also ask for evidance of this in the form of maybe invoices?

What happens if they have paid more than one is it from the last payment or the first payment?

Thanks for your help!

[stevemLS]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

As I read it, it would apply from the date of each payment - which is unusual as mentioned.

I would write to them formally and request a "Schedule of each and every payment made in connection wth my participation in this course of study in order that I can adequately assess any liability I may have incurred."

Have they actually advised you of the amount they say is due?

Have you left yet or just handed in your notice?

[Zjc]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

As I read it, it would apply from the date of each payment - which is unusual as mentioned.

I would write to them formally and request a "Schedule of each and every payment made in connection wth my participation in this course of study in order that I can adequately assess any liability I may have incurred."

Have they actually advised you of the amount they say is due?

Have you left yet or just handed in your notice?

Its going to get rather confusion for both parties if they need to work out each re-payment based on every single date they paid.

I shall draft up a letter now ready for when they ask for fee's.

At present ive just handed my notice in and my manager mentioned that I will be required to make payment for the fee's at which point I responsed with the question of needing to understand "Date of Payment" nothing more was said but I wanted to make sure I was aware of my situation for when they get in touch.

Thanks everyone for your help ill keep updated with progress
Thanks
ZJC

[teaboy2]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Am in agreement with the advice given so far [MENTION=67487]Zjc[/MENTION] - Your entitled to know how much the fees where and when each fee payment was made, otherwise it be impossible for you to know what it is, if anything was owed.

It may be worth contacting the Universty directly too, to see what they say in regards to when the fees were paid. If what the university tells you is different to what Morrisions tell you then that would be an act of dishonesty on Morrisons part, which may amount to fraud. If Morrisons still don't tell you the fee amounts and dates paid, then you can refuse to pay on the basis that the term is unfair as a direct result of their unreasonable and unfair behavior in refusal to tell you when the fees where paid and how much they where, not to mention the onus of proof lies with Morrisons, so its for Morrisons to proof what you owe!

[teaboy2]

Re: Unversity Fees Payback

Besides they didn't mention fee amount or estimated maximum that would be payable - So the terms unenforceable anyway, as there was nothing there for you to take into consideration. Therefore it fails on the principle of contractual consideration as you can not give consideration to the terms if you don't know what the estimated maximum fee repayable is!