CCJ Summons received.

[Hheyes]

I haven't seen the paperwork (currently away from home), but my son tells me I've just received a CCJ summons from/on behalf of Vanquis relating to a 2008 debt.

From memory (I had a few shitty years during which I became ill and lost the plot - unable/unwilling to handle my affairs properly), I recall having a Vanquis card on which I didn't make due payments... so I'm sure there's a debt (one of a few for which I didn't make due payments).

Since then, with some continuing health issues and lacking the money to pay what's needed and the clarity/energy to earn it, my strategy (ha!) has been to simply ignore it all 'for the time being'... recognising that as I don't have any money/possessions and could likely live with a wrecked credit report, that it wouldn't greatly affect my life... and then at some future point when better able, I'd pay-off anything that was strictly necessary and which hadn't simply faded into the past.

More recently, through trying to help a friend, I've read about 'statute barred' and other issues whereby debtors quiz/challenge creditors on the details of a debt, with the intention that cases are dropped because dates/amounts are wrong or appropriate paperwork isn't available.

Although I still have doubts on whether this is worth doing, and I know that morally it's often wrong, it's something that I may want to do in this case (and others which may arise).

Info onsite (at http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...it-Court-Claim), suggests the procedure seems to be:
---------------------------------------------------------------
1 Acknowledge the claim.
Online at www.moneyclaim.gov.uk.

2 Send a CCA request to the Claimant.
Request a true copy of the executed consumer credit agreement agreement and the current terms and conditions encapsulating any variation.

3 Send a CPR request to the Claimant's solicitors.
Often the particulars of claim do not give enough information about the debt to enable you to defend, or admit, the debt with confidence. Therefore request documents mentioned in the claim.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Of course, if I were being decent I'd probably just admit it and ask for time to pay. Clearly though, I'm not, and so if there's 'an available wangle' which may lead to this being dropped, I'm interested.

Does any of this work?

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Hi and welcome

Decency and being moral have nothing to do with it, they have had 6 years to chase you for this debt and have only just entered a court claim. The court claim won't be from Vanquis, it will be from one of the debt purchasing companys, such as Lowell, MKDP, Arrow, 1st Credit, Cabot etc We know that a lot of Vanquis debts were purchased by 1st Credit for 8.9% of their value (we have a copy of the sales document). Often the claimants don't have any details of the debt other than a list of contacts and amounts....suing on that basis is bonkers and they should be challenged to show they have the right to collect the debt and that the debt is valis in the first place. That is all the two letters (CPR 31.14 request and CCA request) do. If they come up trumps and give you valid documents then we can sort out admissions and offers to pay, or negotation to pay of in full and final. Otherwise the court will strike their claim out or they will withdraw, because really all they want is the people who don't fight back and do just roll over the instant a court claim comes through the door. So really don't worry about that.

So when you get home, give us a bit more detail off the front of the claim form, including the particulars of claim, get it acknowledged through moneyclaimonline and get sent off the CCA and CPR requests, and we'll help you deal with things as they comes from that point onwards.

Any more about when you last acknowledged/paid the debt would be great and if you can check your credit file to see if it is still showing on there that would be great too.

xx

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

I haven't seen the paperwork (currently away from home), but my son tells me I've just received a CCJ summons from/on behalf of Vanquis relating to a 2008 debt.

To clarify, it wouldn't be a CCJ just yet, just a claim form.

From memory (I had a few shitty years during which I became ill and lost the plot - unable/unwilling to handle my affairs properly), I recall having a Vanquis card on which I didn't make due payments... so I'm sure there's a debt (one of a few for which I didn't make due payments).

Did you take out the card in 2008 or was this the year when you defaulted on it and stopped making payments?

More recently, through trying to help a friend, I've read about 'statute barred' and other issues whereby debtors quiz/challenge creditors on the details of a debt, with the intention that cases are dropped because dates/amounts are wrong or appropriate paperwork isn't available.

There are two separate situations here:

• Statute barred is when there's been no payment or written acknowledgment for at least 6 years (assuming you are in England and Wales). Once a debt is SBd, it cannot be recovered through the courts and it's an absolute defence. :grin:
• Some debts may be unenforceable in court even if they are not SBd, for example, because the debtor did not sign an agreement with all the prescribed terms at the time the account was opened.

Whether either of the above applies to your case would depend on what you can tell us about this account

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Although I still have doubts on whether this is worth doing, and I know that morally it's often wrong, it's something that I may want to do in this case (and others which may arise).

Banks don't exactly have high morals, and neither do debt purchasers/DCAs and their solicitors acting for them. Let's not forget it was the banks who caused the global economic meltdown in 2008, leaving millions of people around the world in debt/struggling to make ends meet while a lot of them got bailed out with tax money. :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Of course, if I were being decent I'd probably just admit it and ask for time to pay. Clearly though, I'm not, and so if there's 'an available wangle' which may lead to this being dropped, I'm interested.

You ARE being decent! If you look at the process you have followed, you will see it's all based around the law, the Consumer Credit Act and the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR). There's nothing dodgy or 'indecent' about requesting documents regarding the matters they are suing you over. It's all perfectly legal and above board. :thumb:

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Decency and being moral have nothing to do with it, they have had 6 years to chase you for this debt and have only just entered a court claim.

So when you get home, give us a bit more detail of the claim.

Any more about when you last acknowledged/paid the debt would be great and if you can check your credit file to see if it is still showing on there that would be great too.

Thanks.

My point on decency was 'two wrongs don't make it right'... I clearly owe someone money that I initially borrowed in good faith.

And they've probably been chasing me in recent years, but I've simply ignored stuff because I didn't have money to pay and hoped it'd go away. Their action now is likely intended to prevent S/b.

I'll get the details and update here.

It'll have been years since I paid anything or had contact - I really don't remember.

I'll look into the credit file situation.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Did you take out the card in 2008 or was this the year when you defaulted on it and stopped making payments?

Thanks.

I can't remember the dates of when I opened the account or the most recent payment; but I don't think I've contacted them since 2008.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Banks don't exactly have high morals, and neither do debt purchasers/DCAs and their solicitors acting for them.

You ARE being decent! If you look at the process you have followed, you will see it's all based around the law, the Consumer Credit Act and the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR). There's nothing dodgy or 'indecent' about requesting documents regarding the matters they are suing you over. It's all perfectly legal and above board.

I know they're often sh*tty, but I still borrowed the money.

Overall though, if there's a legal way to avoid repayment, I'm ok to seek it.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Its not really about avoiding the debt, it's about avoiding a CCJ against you if you can.... the documents (or lack thereof) will put you in a stronger position to negotiate repayment or settlement on your own terms if you so wish.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Its not really about avoiding the debt, it's about avoiding a CCJ against you if you can.... the documents (or lack thereof) will put you in a stronger position to negotiate repayment or settlement on your own terms if you so wish.

Thanks.

I still consider it as 'removing the need for repayment'. But I'm ok about it.
It was a messed-up period of my life, and if I'd had the money I'd probably have filed for Bankruptcy or similar to conclude the matter.

On the CCA issue... I certainly don't have any paperwork, and I've read that often neither does the Creditor/Plaintiff. Also that there's no need for something signed by the debtor.

Surely then they could send any old nonsense and claim 'that's it'?

And, on the CPR issue... isn't it likely the response will contain 'There's no legal requirement to attach documents to the Claim... check your own records.'?

I'm wondering just what proof is required?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

I still consider it as 'removing the need for repayment'. But I'm ok about it.
It was a messed-up period of my life, and if I'd had the money I'd probably have filed for Bankruptcy or similar to conclude the matter.

Bankruptcy is a last resort to fall back on when all else fails.

On the CCA issue... I certainly don't have any paperwork, and I've read that often neither does the Creditor/Plaintiff. Also that there's no need for something signed by the debtor.

Surely then they could send any old nonsense and claim 'that's it'?

You won't know till you send off the CCA request. 'Any old nonsense' won't cut it in court, they have to show there was a properly executed agreement containing all the prescribed terms to start with.

And, on the CPR issue... isn't it likely the response will contain 'There's no legal requirement to attach documents to the Claim... check your own records.'?

There is no requirement to attach documents to a claim issued via Northampton but that doesn't mean there is no legal requirement to disclose them at a later stage. The usual argument is that when a claim is under £10k it will end up being allocated to small claims where part 31 doesn't apply :blah: :blah: :blah: HOWEVER, at this stage the case wouldn't have been allocated to any track yet.

It's all part of a process that needs to be followed. :thumb:

Best case scenario would be if the claimant was to discontinue the claim seeing they can't provide any documents. I'm not saying this happens very often, but, as with the lotto, you'll never win it if you don't play it!

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Bankruptcy is a last resort to fall back on when all else fails.

You won't know till you send off the CCA request. 'Any old nonsense' won't cut it in court, they have to show there was a properly executed agreement containing all the prescribed terms to start with.

Best case scenario would be if the claimant was to discontinue the claim seeing they can't provide any documents. I'm not saying this happens very often, but, as with the lotto, you'll never win it if you don't play it!

Thanks.

In my case, at some point I became aware that it was likely that I wouldn't be able to settle things in a timely manner and so bankruptcy would have enabled me to step clear of it all much sooner than if I just allowed things to sit. Oh well, such is life.

With the CCA, I simply don't know enough of just how much evidence is required, and I'd have thought that it'd be simple for a Plaintiff to produce something which appears to be ok.

Anyway, let's see what happens.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

So when you get home, give us a bit more detail off the front of the claim form, including the particulars of claim, get it acknowledged through moneyclaimonline and get sent off the CCA and CPR requests, and we'll help you deal with things as they comes from that point onwards.

Here's that info...

Cabot/Mortimer Clarke.

Particulars of claim: By an agreement between Vanquis ('VANQ')and the Defendant on or around 27/10/2008 VANQ agreed to issue the Defendant with a credit card upon terms & conditions set out therein. In breach of the Agreement the defendant failed to make the minimum payments due & the Agreement was terminated.
The Agreement was assigned to the claimant on 23/02/2011
The claimant therefore claims 1xxx.xx.

I've acknowledged the claim, with an intention to defend. (This seemed to be the sensible option because, as noted below, I've no details of it.)

Any more about when you last acknowledged/paid the debt would be great and if you can check your credit file to see if it is still showing on there that would be great too.

As I think I mentioned, my memory of much from that time and a couple years either side is very vague.
Checking my credit file is less than straightforward - when I tried a year-or-two ago Experian couldn't find me.

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Today received a response from Mortimer Clarke.

Seems to have been the usual 'taking our client's instructions and will... soon as we can', along with 'we confirm that our client agrees to an extension of 28 days...' line even though I hadn't asked for one.

So what then does that 28 days do the date by which a defence is required to be filed on a claim issued August 19? Is it, as I assume, an additional 28 days added to the original 33... therefore Sunday Oct 19?

I'm also wondering whether I should/have to accept such an extension... it'll only benefit the Claimant rather than me, by providing them with more time to produce stuff they should have readily to hand anyway.

My view is that as they've said they can't provide the info within the legally-specified timeframe, and if as expected the Claimant can't either, then my defence is a relatively simple one of 'the claimant hasn't provided stuff they should have, there's no evidence, and whilst they're in breach the claim is unenforceable'.

This'll likely result in the court granting more time for them to produce, but the end result will be the same - they'll either provide acceptable proof and I'm scuppered, or they won't and I'm not. So why prolong things?

[Hheyes]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

UPDATE...

So far...

Claim issued August 19, 2014.
MCOL acknowledgment filed Aug 25.
CCA/CPR letters sent by me August 26.
CCA/CPR replies sent to me Aug 28.
Defence due by Sept 21?

CCA from Cabot states: 'We don't have it... requesting from original lender... should be able to get within 40 days.'

CPR from Mortimer Clarke states: 'Taking client instructions... will come back asap... our client agrees to the extension of 28 days for you to file defence - please notify Court of this.'


Looking ahead...

The 28 days suggested by MC delays defence due date to Oct 19?

Allowing for delivery to me, the '40 days' suggested by Cabot is beyond the original defence-due date, and very close to the revised date suggested by the MC letter.

I didn't ask for an extension - and neither need nor want one. I have other stuff to do, and don't want this dragging on.

My view is that they probably speculatively issued the claim, hoping for a default judgment knowing they didn't have the supporting paperwork and might not be able to get it.

I'm inclined to file my defence now, basically one of 'I deny the claim; prove it.'


Questions...

1 How specific does my defence need to be - I'm assuming I can't just say ' I deny it, prove it' without stating reasons?

2 If Cabot aren't able to produce the supporting paperwork in time, will the case likely be stayed? And if so, for how long, or is it indefinite?

[Amethyst]

Re: CCJ Summons received.

Hiya,

If you sent the ''template'' CPR request then it does contain this line

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing and confirm your agreement to an extension of the time allowed for me to file my defence as allowed under CPR 15.5 so I may notify the court.

To answer your other question, yes the 28 day extension is added to the original 33 days, so mid October sounds about right. You will need to let the court know (email is fine) that both parties have agreed to the extension and give them the new defence filing deadline date.