Tomlin Order without Court seal.

[saccadic]

Hello

I, maybe somewhat foolishly, have signed a hand written Tomlin order outside of court that has not been sealed or signed by the courts. The reception staff took into court and said it had been approved - none of which I witnessed and it has also been signed by a solicitors agent, which maybe another can of worms.

Also, the paralegal that provided the witness statement did not arrive for court and I was approached by said agent

I'm quite reluctant to pay this as I feel duped and that maybe this order is not legitimate without a seal. Any thoughts?

To add, I think this is the most relevant CPR:

https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pr...rules/part40#I

[efpom]

You are technically correct. No Order exists without the court seal. CPR 40.2(2)(b)

So ask the court office for a copy of the Order. Either it exists or not. If it does not, the draft consent order, probably the document you signed, has no legal effect.

But, as you signed that, it is very easy to get any mistake in issuing the Order rectified, at which point you will have a valid Order, which you will have to abide, or face the consequences.

[Amethyst]

Do you have a copy of the Tomlin order ( and schedule ?) that you seem to have agreed to ?

[jaguarsuk]

All they need to do is file the order and pay the fee, then you will have a sealed order against you.

[saccadic]

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies.

I have spoken to the court today and they are preparing the order to post out next week, same terms and schedule as drafted. So, looks like the order will b valid.

I phoned the claimant last night and they have a differing schedule, which was confirmed in a letter from them today - saying further action maybe taken if not followed.

I'm half tempted to get this back into court and see if the agent (with no right of audience) turns up instead of the witness to see what the court have to say about that.

If I breach this order, what are the ramifications and would I be able to get it back into court to present a defence/ debunk the agent?

[saccadic]

Do you have a copy of the Tomlin order ( and schedule ?) that you seem to have agreed to ?

"Tomlin Order

1. All further proceedings in this claim are stayed upon the terms set out in the schedule to this order save for the purposes of carrying such terms into effect.

2. Either party has liberty to apply to the court to enforce the terms upon which this matter has been stayed without the need to bring a new claim.

3. The Defendant shall pay the Claimant's costs agreed in the sum of £xxxx.

We consent to an order int the above terms.

Schedule

1. the Defendant agrees to pay the total sum of £xxxx by the following methods of:

(i) £xxxx by ddmmyy
(ii) £xxx per month until the remaining balance is discharge. The first payment falling due on ddmmyy and payments shall continue on the last working day of each month.

2 In default of the above terms, the Claimant is at liberty to apply for judgement.

We consent to an order in the above terms."

All signed date and headed with the relevant court and claim number etc etc.

"Claimant is at liberty to apply for judgement", would that mean going back to court to a hearing or an instant judgement, I presume the former?

[jaguarsuk]

I phoned the claimant last night and they have a differing schedule, which was confirmed in a letter from them today - saying further action maybe taken if not followed.

It doesn't matter what schedule they have, the one the court has is the one that matters and if they want it to be different para 2 of the order in post #6 allows them leave to apply to amend it.

If you were to breach the order that para gives them the power to seek a CCJ with the terms of the schedule against you which they could then enforce via the usual methods if you failed again to pay.

[saccadic]

I'm still awaiting the court order. I expect it will be delivered in a day or two, even though the first payment is due tomorrow. I'll see what the postie delivers.

If you were to breach the order that para gives them the power to seek a CCJ with the terms of the schedule against you which they could then enforce via the usual methods if you failed again to pay.

Would that mean going back to court? If so, if the witness does not turn up again and the solicitor's agent does (who possibly does not have the right to an audience), wouldn't this lead me to having the advantage with a view to getting it dismissed?

[jaguarsuk]

I'm still awaiting the court order. I expect it will be delivered in a day or two, even though the first payment is due tomorrow. I'll see what the postie delivers.




Would that mean going back to court? If so, if the witness does not turn up again and the solicitor's agent does (who possibly does not have the right to an audience), wouldn't this lead me to having the advantage with a view to getting it dismissed?

It doesn't necessarily require a hearing, they can simply apply without a hearing and unless you can come up with a pretty good reason why it should go to a hearing I doubt a judge would order one.

I don't understand why you would enter into a Tomlin Order at court with someone who is neither the claimant or a solicitor, so couldn't go into the hearing to represent the claimant and now are thinking about breaching the order hoping the same person will attend, but not be able to appear before the court?

[saccadic]

I don't understand why you would enter into a Tomlin Order at court with someone who is neither the claimant or a solicitor, so couldn't go into the hearing to represent the claimant and now are thinking about breaching the order hoping the same person will attend, but not be able to appear before the court?

I know, I'm pretty annoyed at myself and some information came to light after the day at court.

[jaguarsuk]

I know, I'm pretty annoyed at myself and some information came to light after the day at court.

What the information is that has come to light?

[saccadic]

What the information is that has come to light?

That solicitors agent wasn't actually the witness and that agents don't have the right to audience and that its illegal. I should have double checked who I was dealing with, stuck to my guns to go in and defend

[jaguarsuk]

That solicitors agent wasn't actually the witness and that agents don't have the right to audience and that its illegal. I should have double checked who I was dealing with, stuck to my guns to go in and defend

That's not new information that can have any bearing on trying to vary or set aside the Tomlin Order.

It's not illegal for an agent of the claimant to come to the court and hold a meeting with you before you enter the court room. I could go to my local court waiting room and hold a meeting with anyone I liked not even relating to any cases that day, I might get some strange looks, but wouldn't be committing any crimes.

The person didn't identify themselves as anything and you didn't ask them by your own admission, so they have not impersonated someone with rights of audience. They have come to offer you the Tomlin Order and you assumed they were there with rights of audience to proceed with the claim.

You should have checked who the person was, but you didn't and signed the Tomlin Order which has been sealed. If you breach it the claimant will have the rights under the schedule to apply to enforce it.

[saccadic]

Yep, agreed and thanks for your input. I meant illegal as going into court without the claimant. I obviously wasn't on the ball.

The court order has been received today. I'll think I may just have to put this one to experience.

Have a good weekend

[jaguarsuk]

Yep, agreed and thanks for your input. I meant illegal as going into court without the claimant. I obviously wasn't on the ball.

No because being in the building wouldn't matter, as I say anyone can rock up to hold a meeting. It would only be an issue if they went into the court room to appear on behalf of the claimant and the claimant had not ask to give the rights of audience as a lay person.

Don't get me wrong they're sneaky for doing it, but not legally in the wrong.

The court order has been received today. I'll think I may just have to put this one to experience.

Unfortunately, yes!