Black Horse PPI reclaim

[Turboman]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

Bill

I'm working from trying to understand BH's calcs first---I think perhaps the £121.87 in Final Pymnt for Loan 1 as against ours of £261.52 needs some challenging first--

I think it might be cos they are bringing into play "cost of alternative PPI cover"--so had a look at the bible PS 10/2012
or am I going down a blind alley?---note ref within below is not D1Anne's Loans but FSA examples

Example 8 The complainant would have purchased an alternative regular
premium PPI policy at the outset. The firm finds it mis-sold a
previous single premium PPI policy to the complainant which
was subsequently cancelled to consolidate or refinance the
connected loan.

As described in DISP App 3.2.7G and DISP App 3.9.3G, the firm should consider
the sales of previous single premium PPI policies to the complainant in respect of refinanced
loans that were rolled up into the loan covered by the PPI policy that is the
subject of complaint. Where there were previous breaches or failings the redress to
the complainant should address the cumulative financial impact on the complainant.


First loan and policy details:
Loan amount £9,400
PPI premium £1,700
Total loan £11,100
APR 10%
Monthly loan payment (without PPI) £199.72
Monthly PPI payments £36.12
Total monthly payment £235.84
Term of loan and PPI policy (in months) 60
Duration of payments (in months) 12
Time since loan refinanced (in months) 36


Loan 1 - Redress is calculated in two parts for loan 1:

1. As described in DISP App 3.7.3E and DISP App 3.7.10E, the firm should pay to
the complainant a sum equal to the total amount the complainant paid for the PPI
the PPI including historic interest where relevant (plus simple interest on that
amount) less the amount the complainant would have paid for the alternative
regular premium PPI policy.

In this example, this is the sum of the complainant’s PPI policy payments made
via the loan repayments less the price of the alternative regular premium PPI
policy. The simple interest is calculated on the difference between the actual PPI
policy payment and the alternative policy price for each payment, from the time
each actual PPI payment was made to the time the compensation is paid
2. As described in DISP 3.7.4(2)E, the firm should also pay the difference between
the actual loan balance at the point of cancellation and what the loan balance
would have been if no premium had been added minus any applicable
cancellation value. Note that it is not appropriate to add simple interest to this
amount as it forms part of loan 2.

The above two parts are calculated as follows:

Historic monthly overpayments calculation for loan 1

Cost per £100 of alternative regular premium PPI £9
Therefore, monthly cost of alternative regular premium PPI for loan 1
(based on monthly loan repayment without PPI of £199.72) £17.97
Monthly difference (actual PPI payment of £36.12 – alternative regular
premium price of £17.97) £18.15--Hmmm--this is £9 per non PPI pymnt--should it not be £9 per Cash Advance (per £100)----LATE EDIT--of course its right--its like credit cars --its covering only the paymnt of the mthly pymnt presumably--not the main loan amnt in case of death etc????---I think--lol

Compensation for the total difference in PPI payments (monthly
difference of £18.15 x duration of payments of 12 months) £218

8% p.a. simple interest (on historic monthly payments for 12 months
and the 36 months since loan 1 was refinanced) £62

Total monthly overpayment compensation payable for loan 1 £280


Overpayment on loan redemption calculation for loan 1

Actual redemption value of the loan after 12 months (without any PPI
rebate)
£9,298.86

Notional redemption value of the loan after 12 months (if PPI had not
been added to loan):
£7,874.70

PPI rebate paid to loan at redemption (assuming that at 12 months the
rebate is 65% of the original premium i.e. 65% of £1,700):
£1,105

The overpayment value (actual redemption value - notional
redemption value - PPI rebate):
£319.16

This figure is refinanced into loan 2 so any further loss is calculated
with reference to loan 2's duration and APR. 8% p.a. simple interest is
not added. The amount is carried over into the loan 2 calculation.

etc as here from page 119+

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pubs/policy/ps10_12.pdf


Also the £143.40 from loan 1 refund appears in loan 2 Summary redress Page ?????

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

Cross that bridge when and if it happens. It may have been an honest mistake by them missing out one of the loans or they may well be able to provide you with an answer. I am very sure that if they have made one mistake they could have made a few. The figures that both Turbs and Bill have done are calculated in conjection with the FSA rules, so it is unlikely they would refuse to change the offer if they are wrong. They will not want a complaint made against them.

My only fear is that they still don't get to grips with the calculations and refuse to change the offer and then when I go to the ombudsman he also doesn't get to grips and understand it..... so agrees with BH........... surely I cant be the only person who has loans like this with PPI as confusing as it seems to be...........

[d1anne]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

I'm with you there, Di. Let's get it sorted. We've done our best to make sense of their offer, and I think you have done your best to make sense of our deliberations !!! Let's see what they come back with...

My only fear is that they still don't get to grips with the calculations and refuse to change the offer and then when I go to the ombudsman he also doesn't get to grips and understand it..... so agrees with BH........... surely I cant be the only person who has loans like this with PPI as confusing as it seems to be...........

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

This is turning out to be quite a lengthy post and I cant thank Bill-K and Turbo enough for their input and help, I have now sent a letter of reply quoting the figures to BH and given them 14 days to get back to me, I will post back what their reply is, depending on what they say will depend on what I have to do next....... I only hope that when they look at the figures quoted they agree....... If not I dare say this will continue on until resolved.

I'm with you there, Di. Let's get it sorted. We've done our best to make sense of their offer, and I think you have done your best to make sense of our deliberations !!! Let's see what they come back with...

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

Thanks Tuttsi--most kind---but as Bill says--I'll get there
I know you will.
Looking at latest post Bill--

Loan1--Their actual CCA amount was £9.97 & date interest calculated to was 15/1/2013 as in earlier post by D1Anne giving £90.14 (I know-lol-cf £ 90.22)
I actually used a £3 calculator for the original figures, but used an Excel spready for the most recent calcs - hence the few pence differences !!!
Taking into account their income tax deduction of £6.10 (20% on stat interest of (their) £30.50) you and BH now agree Loan 1
As near as dammit, yeah.
Will work on rest during day--well done to you
I'm not sure that they have grasped the 'Carry-Forward' aspect, TBH. So Loan 2 shows a larger disparity because of this, I suspect. Get your head around that, and you're home and dry.
I'm going to try and illustrate using the joint SS's I did for Maxie many years ago--lol
Use what you are comfortable working with. I'll try and remember the old stuff and maybe meet you half way.

....

[d1anne]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

Thanks Tuttsi--most kind---but as Bill says--I'll get there



Looking at latest post Bill--

Loan1--Their actual CCA amount was £9.97 & date interest calculated to was 15/1/2013 as in earlier post by D1Anne giving £90.14 (I know-lol-cf £ 90.22)

Taking into account their income tax deduction of £6.10 (20% on stat interest of (their) £30.50) you and BH now agree Loan 1

Will work on rest during day--well done to you

I'm going to try and illustrate using the joint SS's I did for many Maxie years ago--lol

This is turning out to be quite a lengthy post and I cant thank Bill-K and Turbo enough for their input and help, I have now sent a letter of reply quoting the figures to BH and given them 14 days to get back to me, I will post back what their reply is, depending on what they say will depend on what I have to do next....... I only hope that when they look at the figures quoted they agree....... If not I dare say this will continue on until resolved.

[Turboman]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

Thanks Tuttsi--most kind---but as Bill says--I'll get there

WOW..... what a minefield you have had to work through and to hear our Turbs stating that he cannot get his round the calculations they must be very difficult. Hats off anyway to both Turbs and Bill for the amazing work you have both done in unravelling the calculations.

Looking at latest post Bill--

Loan1--Their actual CCA amount was £9.97 & date interest calculated to was 15/1/2013 as in earlier post by D1Anne giving £90.14 (I know-lol-cf £ 90.22)

Taking into account their income tax deduction of £6.10 (20% on stat interest of (their) £30.50) you and BH now agree Loan 1

Will work on rest during day--well done to you

I'm going to try and illustrate using the joint SS's I did for Maxie many years ago--lol

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

I have used BH's and Turbo's method, where the refunded payments are NOT used in the calculations. This makes a tiny difference to the 8% calculations, but keeps things simple. Apart from the 8% SI calculation - which does need a spreadsheet - I think all of this can be checked with a basic calculator:-

Loan 1:
This was for a total of £2323.43, and 13.9204% of this amount was PPI, which came to £323.43.
6 repayments of £71.66 were made, totalling £429.96. As 13.9204% of this was PPI, then a total of £59.88 in PPI was paid, and is due to be refunded.
The 8% interest on these PPI payments comes to £30.34 as at 15/01/13.
Therefore, the refund offer on this loan should have been £59.88 + £30.34 = £90.22

According to the statement, the balance owing was £1887.96 at the time of settlement, and £1879.39 of this was settled by carrying it forward to Loan 2. The remaining £8.57 was settled by crediting the account by £151.89, and then debiting the account by £143.32.

Of the £1879.39 which was carried forward to Loan 2, 13.9204% of this was PPI, which comes to £261.62.

Loan 2:
This was for a total of £6142.99. Of this, £1142.99 was a new PPI premium, and £261.62 was the PPI carried forward from the settlement of loan 1. So, the total of PPI was £1142.99 + £261.62 = £1404.61, which is 22.8652% of the total loan advance.
6 repayments of £128.43 were made, totalling £770.58. As 22.8652% of this was PPI, then a total of £ of £176.22 in PPI was paid, and is due to be refunded.
The 8% interest on these PPI payments comes to £76.40 as at 15/01/13.
Therefore, the refund on this loan should be £176.22 + £76.40 = £252.62

According to the statement, the balance owing was £5658.58 at the time of settlement, and £5009.51 of this was settled by carrying it forward to Loan 3. The remaining £649.07 was settled by crediting the account by £777.50, and then debiting the account by £128.43.

Of the £5009.51 which was carried forward to Loan 2, 22.8652% of this was PPI, which comes to £1145.43.

Loan 3:
This was for a total of £12496.04. Of this, £2496.04 was a new PPI premium, and £1145.43 was the PPI carried forward from the settlement of loan 2. So, the total of PPI was £2496.04 + £1145.43 = £3641.47, which is 29.141% of the total loan advance.
No repayments were made.

According to the statement, the balance owing was £12430.96 at the time of settlement, and £10619.56 of this was settled by a cash repayment. The remaining £1811.40 was settled by crediting the account by £2074.45, and then debiting the account by £263.05.

The debt was settled with a repayment of £10619.56. As 29.141% of this was PPI, then £3094.65 is due to be refunded.
The 8% interest on this PPI payment comes to £1220.22 as at 15/01/13.
Therefore, the refund on this loan should be £3094.65 + 1220.22 = £4314.87

So, totalling all 3 loans, we have £90.22 + £252.62 + £4314.87 = £4657.71
BH have offered £1199.11, which is £3458.60 less than it seems D1anne is entitled to.
If we calculate the 8% interest to 20/2/13, then the total due is increased by £26.30 to £4684.01.
If we deduct 20% Income Tax from the 8% SI (£270.65), their offer is still £3214.25 short, IMO.

It seems to me that the main problem here is that they have disregarded the settlement payment in Loan 3, and therefore the PPI contained within it.

I have attached the 3 spreadsheets, showing the 8% interest calculated to 20/2/13.

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

I never like to suggest that we send them our own figures until we have some meaningful figures from them. The reason being that they will sometimes offer more than we have calculated - but if we send them our own figures, then they will not offer more than that. So - sending our own figures can have the effect of limiting our claim. So, personally, I would prefer to just tell them that they appear to have omitted to refund the PPI element contained within the £10619.56 loan settlement payment. This should be refunded, as it was not carried forward to a BH consolidation loan, and is estimated to be in excess of £4300.

However, I can also see the point of showing them our calculations, as I suspect they may well give you the run-around with this. So, for a (hopefully) faster result, then sending our own calculations may be worth considering. The choice is yours, really, D1anne. I'll re-calculate the figures I posted earlier, taking into account the refunded payments on each loan, and post them again here ASAP.

[d1anne]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

I would suggest a 14-day reply expectation to be reasonable, D1. If you're gonna keep it simple, then just mention the Loan 3 error. Don't be specific with the figures - use the term 'at least'.......

Bill, I would have thought that I would have had to quote some ( for example) figures for them to see where we are coming from as they have already stated that they believe their figures and calculations to be correct.........

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

I would suggest a 14-day reply expectation to be reasonable, D1. If you're gonna keep it simple, then just mention the Loan 3 error. Don't be specific with the figures - use the term 'at least'.......

[d1anne]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

I'm well pleased that you took the trouble to read through all the geeky waffle, D1anne, and found this 'hidden' question. As 'Foggy' Dewhurst might have said - " Good to see you're paying attention, that man !"

So - we can reduce the claim amounts similarly for Loans 2 & 3 - and this (albeit loosely) concurs with BH's accounts of the number of payments made to each account. It also (albeit loosely) concurs with Turbo's account of the number of payments made to each account.

We can therefore, I reckon, accept BH's offer on Loans 1 & 2 as being a bit stingy - but not too far off the mark. That then leaves Loan 3, which as I have explained above could be tackled on its own as an erroneous offer.Thank you, Tuttsi - you're very kind. I hope I'm not breaching any confidences, but I know that Turbo has had a lot of personal issues to deal with recently (as you have had also, Tuttsi).

I'm sure he will get his head round this, because that's the way he is. That's why I work with the bugga.

Dammit !!!

I will compose a letter back to BH and send it in reply to there offer and see what they have to say about it. do you think I should put a timescale on this as to when I would expect a rely or full settlement ??

[Bill-K]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

If this final refund was actually made to D1anne separately, then we need to confirm that, and deduct £143.32 x 13.9204% = £19.95 from the £119.72 claim I put forward earlier, making the claim £99.77.
HI Bill-K I do vaguely remember being credited with an amount at the end of these loans, so I DO believe this information that black horse have stated could be correct.

I'm well pleased that you took the trouble to read through all the geeky waffle, D1anne, and found this 'hidden' question. As 'Foggy' Dewhurst might have said - " Good to see you're paying attention, that man !"

So - we can reduce the claim amounts similarly for Loans 2 & 3 - and this (albeit loosely) concurs with BH's accounts of the number of payments made to each account. It also (albeit loosely) concurs with Turbo's account of the number of payments made to each account.

We can therefore, I reckon, accept BH's offer on Loans 1 & 2 as being a bit stingy - but not too far off the mark. That then leaves Loan 3, which as I have explained above could be tackled on its own as an erroneous offer.

WOW..... what a minefield you have had to work through and to hear our Turbs stating that he cannot get his round the calculations they must be very difficult. Hats off anyway to both Turbs and Bill for the amazing work you have both done in unravelling the calculations.

Thank you, Tuttsi - you're very kind. I hope I'm not breaching any confidences, but I know that Turbo has had a lot of personal issues to deal with recently (as you have had also, Tuttsi).

I'm sure he will get his head round this, because that's the way he is. That's why I work with the bugga.

Dammit !!!

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

WOW..... what a minefield you have had to work through and to hear our Turbs stating that he cannot get his round the calculations they must be very difficult. Hats off anyway to both Turbs and Bill for the amazing work you have both done in unravelling the calculations.

[d1anne]

Re: Black Horse PPI reclaim

If this final refund was actually made to D1anne separately, then we need to confirm that, and deduct £143.32 x 13.9204% = £19.95 from the £119.72 claim I put forward earlier, making the claim £99.77.
HI Bill-K I do vaguely remember being credited with an amount at the end of these loans, so I DO believe this information that black horse have stated could be correct.