Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Submissions will be on the way to the FOS for the Ombudsman now by or before Friday, the deadline, wish me luck folks, and TBD, cheers for all the help/info on this too and everyone else.

Any info you forward me TBD I look forward to receiving, a Big Thanks.

[Vagabond_UK]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Bloomin' heck di, I thought my case was convoluted and complicated until I read your case... I've a long way to go it seems.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

LOL tell me about it .
Hopefully you will not get the same problems, fingers crossed.

Afterall it's the FOS suggestion of going this avenue.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Thank you TBD, all sent, and hopefully they will see through this now, appreciate so muchly, cheers x

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Email received from the Adjudicator.
Now the point here is this should be going under the underwriter Hamilton and again he mentions Click, Ok we know all parties must be taken into account and already know as this was rejected a few years back because Click were not under jurisdiction, so why he is going back on old ground, I'm sure he's trying to confuse!

[marshallka]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Email received from the Adjudicator.
Now the point here is this should be going under the underwriter Hamilton and again he mentions Click, Ok we know all parties must be taken into account and already know as this was rejected a few years back because Click were not under jurisdiction, so why he is going back on old ground, I'm sure he's trying to confuse!

Di, with my Pinnacle one they did similar and sent me a letter similar to above and then I received another "opinion" a few weeks later (via a phone call) from aother adjudicator who tried to frighten me off (and I told her so!!) by saying that in her opinion she also agreed and that it would now go before the Ombudsman. I told her to stick it now and that they all stick together (just me sounding off as usual and probably not a good move either) and she said she was only saying she agreed with the first one and that it would now be some time before the Ombudsman could view. I did not know another adjudicator would look at it TBH so just to be warned. As you know I gave up on this one (no strength left to fight ) but I know that you have everyones backing on this DI and lets see you win!!!

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Di, with my Pinnacle one they did similar and sent me a letter similar to above and then I received another "opinion" a few weeks later (via a phone call) from aother adjudicator who tried to frighten me off (and I told her so!!) by saying that in her opinion she also agreed and that it would now go before the Ombudsman. I told her to stick it now and that they all stick together (just me sounding off as usual and probably not a good move either) and she said she was only saying she agreed with the first one and that it would now be some time before the Ombudsman could view. I did not know another adjudicator would look at it TBH so just to be warned. As you know I gave up on this one (no strength left to fight ) but I know that you have everyones backing on this DI and lets see you win!!!

Email received from the Adjudicator, he mentions the letter he sent on the 2 June, but nothing about the one he sent on the 22 July, strange!
Now the point here is this should be going under the underwriter Hamilton and again he mentions Click, Ok we know all parties must be taken into account and already know as this was rejected a few years back because Click were not under jurisdiction, so why he is going back on old ground, I'm sure he's trying to confuse!
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Oops, don't know what happened to my post above lol,

Thanks for you're feedback Marshallka, yeah you had a real tough time didn't you?

It would not at all surprise me if it will be the same case for me, no matter what submissions we provide.

I was so annoyed when with the bother you had on your's and with as much evidence/info you provided it seemed they turned a blind eye and ignored it all.

I have had great support from you all, if it wasn't for you though I think I would have given up hope on this ages ago.
So will keep it going for now and keep everything crossed.

I have also just been browsing on google search at other companies loan introducers agreements.


One of them here:
http://www.vloansltd.com/pdf/agency-agreement.pdf

And here:
http://www.colonialfinance.co.uk/Int..._Agreement.pdf

Xxx

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Despite sending in as much evidence as possible to the Adjudicator, I really don't understand him at all, where he states in his letter dated 22 July 2011 -

"I therefore can only base my conclusion on the documents I have on file, of which none provide concrete evidence to suggest Click was an Agent to Endeavour and untimately that the underwriter Hamilton Insurance would be responsible for the sale of your policy"

He states that he was unable to conclude the agency relationship existed between Click Finance, as the business sold the policy and Endeavour, as the business that lent the funds to us.

I provided him with a copy of the letter from Endeavour prior to this as well, copy below to say who is who and what done what, what does he mean then in Concrete evidence??? (I just hope the recent submission helped by TBD have made this stronger now).

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

Further submission letter to the FOS. Did also send a submission helped by TBD earlier in the month, but thought I would sent this below anyway as well.

Address

16 August 2011

Mr /The Ombudsman
Financial Ombudsman Service
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London
E14 9SR






Dear Mr M &/The Ombudsman dealing with this case.


Reference:
Click Finance/Endeavour Personal Finance (now HFC) Hamilton Insurance Company (Underwriter/Insurer).




I would like to make further points in relation of our case of the companies as above and in regards of the views/opinions given on this case.


The letter from you (Mr ******** *******) dated 02 June 2011, you stated that you were unable to investigate our complaint against Click Finance because of the Sale of the Payment Protection Insurance by Intermediaries such as Click has not been regulated since 14 January 2004.
Therefore our complaint against Click Finance is not within the Jurisdiction of your service, and you advised us you were then investigating the possibility of raising our concerns with the Insurance company who actually provided the cover under the policy (Underwriter), and you established that the underwriter of our policy was Hamilton Insurance Limited.


In order to conclude that Hamilton is responsible for the sale of the policy, you needed to be satisfied that Endeavour Personal Finance (EPF) was acting as an Agent when selling the policy.
You confirm that you’ve been unable to determine that Click was acting as an Agent of EPF when selling the policy, and as such you have been unable to conclude that there was a relationship between Click, Endeavour and Hamilton.


We had then found some details in some paperwork of HFC Bank (Endeavour was not HFC back then and only have been in recent years, although they were then under the same umbrella and had some dealings somewhere in the loan process)) at the time we taken out our loan in July 2004. We understood HFC was regulated back then unlike Endeavour Personal Finance or Click Finance, but they came into the process somewhere in the loan process.
We had forwarded you a copy of the paperwork of a HFC Customer Speaks form as we suspected they had involvement as well.


The application form was completed over the telephone by Click Finance and they sent this form to us to sign, No PPI added to the application form.
I had sent you a copy of this as “Concrete Evidence” as requested as evidence that Click Finance had completed the Application for a Secured loan.
Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) was however applied to EPF loan Agreement, this was later on in the loan process.
You will recall that I sent you a copy of 2 different signed loan agreements via EPF, one was dated before the completion on the Click loan application and the later agreement was in the final stages of the loan.
The first loan Agreement was the lender’s copy, and the later one signed and dated on 30 July 2004 was the customer copy, two different dates.


On researching, it seems that Endeavour Personal Finance (EPF) (Now HFC) used Loan sourcing “Introducers”, also classed as Brokers.
However, Loan mortgage packers/Introducers - more work is involved than that of a Standard loan credit broker.
Loan Introducers, they collect Employers References, Mortgage References and a Completion of a Building Society Questionnaire in short known as a (BSQ), this is for a second charge on the property, they also organise house valuations, credit searches.
No standard credit broker would undertake those activities as stated above.
Obviously commission will be paid by the lender on completion of the loan.


In regards of the above, we sent copies of all paperwork, such as the Employers details/Reference, The Mortgage statement/reference/charge, the House Valuation Report.
Click Finance paperwork, Endeavour Personal Finance paperwork, HFC details and a copy of the Endeavour (LOGO) EPF Payment Protection Policy details - which enclosed full details of the Underwriter/Insurer - Hamilton Insurance Limited.


The letter received from Mr Adjudicator dated 22 July 2011 also confirms it’s a complaint you cannot consider because you were unable to conclude that an Agency Relationship existed between Click Finance as the business that sold the policy and Endeavour Personal Finance that lent the funds.
Despite us sending in the copies of the paperwork for all of the above parties of who was who and what role they played.
The letter (a copy enclosed) from Endeavour Personal Finance, that was also forwarded to you by email states who is who and what part they came in to the process of the loan.


The letter dated 22 July 2011 also states that you have been in touch with HFC who used to be Endeavour Personal Finance, and they were unable to confirm or deny if Click were acting as a Mortgage Packager, and if Click were acting as a Mortgage Packager for EPF - who stated that even if Click were acting as a Mortgage Packager, this would not be evidence of an Agency Relationship.


In our view to this, no Standard Broker would collect the information as stated earlier in this letter, employers references, mortgage references and so on.
An agreement would have had to be signed up between broker and lender, this is known as an “Agency agreement” this would then form a relationship to from the lender to the broker (loan introducer). So this “is” called an “Agency Relationship” and is known to the English Law.


The paperwork provided to you is as stated of all parties involved in the process of the loan, and this case has been with the Financial Ombudsman Service since approximately 2009 or before.
It was suggested by the FOS to go the Underwriter/Insurer avenue, in our case Hamilton Insurance.
As Click Finance was not under jurisdiction when we taken out the loan and Click also dissolved in 2006.
The Insurers/Underwriters would also be involved, as this is also arranged by the lender (in our case).


I have also enclosed copies of examples of Loan Sourcing - Finance Transfer, please note this though is not a copies of Endeavour Personal Finance, but they “did” use loan introducers at the time we taken out the loan.


I am hoping still to get hold of a copy of a Copy of the Agency Agreement, and if I’m able to I will send to you as soon as possible before the timescale of 29 August 2011.




Yours sincerely

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

At the start of this week, I emailed the company that valued our property, and asked them to confirm on this if they company used (brokers of our loan) were standard credit brokers or introducers, well we have written proof that these were actually introducers.

Here's our email sent........

Good afternoon



I did email the business about a month or so ago, and it's in regards of a general query.



I require the details for the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) in regards of the business that arranged the valuation back on 21 July 2011.



I attach the copy of the Mortgage Valuation Report, and it seems it was instructed by Click Home loans Ltd, (Click Finance), so even though we have this confirmation as shown on the document enclosed, I just wondered if your company could also clarify on this. They need to know if they were standard brokers or introducers (mortgage packager for secured loans etc), it's just a basic query but we just require clarity on this, thank you.



Many thanks and apologies for bothering you, and look forward to hearing from you.



Mr & Mrs.





For email disclaimer details please click or visit - http://www.countrywideplc.co.uk/disclaimer


And the response from the mortgage valuation company here....





Good afternoon Mr & Mrs,

Please accept my apologise for the delay in you receiving a response to your query.

I can confirm that 1 Click were the introducer.

Kind regards
C

C
Team Leader, Surveying Services
2 Boundary Court, Willow Farm Business Park, Castle Donington, Derby. DE74 2NN
DD
01332 813027

Fax
01252 379107

Email
clare.cheatle@cwsurveyors.co.uk

[The Debt Star]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

what a song and dance Di. You have been badly let down by the FOS imo. Have you gone to the Independent Assessor on this one yet?

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

what a song and dance Di. You have been badly let down by the FOS imo. Have you gone to the Independent Assessor on this one yet?

Hi TDS

No not yet, will do though if it fails with the ombudsman, see if the ombudsman views this differently.

[The Debt Star]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

I was reading somewhere else, think it was CAG, that a poster had appealed a 'final' adjudication by an ombudsman, by raising responses to that adjudication with the ombudsman concerned. The ombudsman has then taken the file back on. So it looks like it isn't quite the end of the road at all if a decision by an ombudsman isn't satisfactory. The poster concerned felt that the ombudsman had been lazy and not read the file properly, just the original adjudication. I bet that is very common and most likely to happen on most appeals. The rule of thumb seems to be persistence and not to let the FOS always get its own way.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

I was reading somewhere else, think it was CAG, that a poster had appealed a 'final' adjudication by an ombudsman, by raising responses to that adjudication with the ombudsman concerned. The ombudsman has then taken the file back on. So it looks like it isn't quite the end of the road at all if a decision by an ombudsman isn't satisfactory. The poster concerned felt that the ombudsman had been lazy and not read the file properly, just the original adjudication. I bet that is very common and most likely to happen on most appeals. The rule of thumb seems to be persistence and not to let the FOS always get its own way.

That is very interesting TDS, thanks for posting this up.
I may go there yet if the ombudsman i end with is the same as the adjudicator lol, all the further submissions I have sent recently (as they have given me until 29th of this month) he has not acknowledged as requested.

[di30]

Re: Hamilton/HFC/Endeavour - Reclaim PPI

The Adjudicator confirmed all submissions today, and I made him aware that I am just awaiting more details from Endeavour/HFC, and still waiting for some feedback from them.
So due to this the Adjudicator offered until the 9th Sept, I have accepted that because it may give me time as well to sort further info as well.


The letter/email I sent to Endeavour/HFC was dated 20 August, and they got back to me on the 22 August to say they will pass on to the dept and they will respond to me, but up to now we're still not heard anything, so I also emailed them today to chase this up.

Address

Central Complaints Department
HFC Bank
PO Box 5055
Coventry
CV3 9EF
20 August 2011

Dear Sir/Madam

Account Number:

I had contacted Direct Group, who had contacted Aviva in relation of the Insurance of the Policy.
Aviva had passed on your address in regards of my query.

You confirmed just previously that Hamilton Insurance now known as Direct Group was the company that managed the Insurance Policy.

I understand that Click Finance were the Introducers of the policy, (we have collected written evidence for this). However, the Insurance Payment Protection Insurance (PPI) was not added on the Click Application Form, as shown on many copies of the applications received through SAR paperwork and one recently sent to me in the post by your company.

You will also note that on the application it states £21,000 for over a 240 month term, and on our lender Agreement the term is that of 300 months. The loan agreement also shows PPI added.
Please could you confirm with Click Finance being a Introducer on where the Insurance came into the loan process, and provide written evidence with your explanation to this? Thank you, I look forward to your response.

Yours sincerely






Dear Mr & Mrs *****

Thank you for your email below, addressed to the Chief Executive. I have passed this on to the appropriate area within HSBC, who will respond to you as soon as possible.

Regards
S
Office of the Chief Executive, HSBC Bank plc