Mr T V Hsbc Personal Account- letter from DG to dismiss - Responded 19/01

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Just updating this thread, and making my notes here.

Mr T received his letter from HSBC a few days ago and will send back the sample letter once suitably changed to suit his own circumstances.

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ad.php?t=20932

I just wonder if this thread should be moved back to the HSBC section under banks?

Let the challenge begin....

Tuttsi

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

DG Solicitors have now sent to Barnet Court on the 15th January 2010 the following which I will attach the documents:-

1. Letter directly to the Court - 2 pages
2. Press Summary dated 25 Nov09 - 3 pages
3. Supreme Court Judgement 2 pages.

HELP.... what is the next step

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Further 2 uploads.

Thank you in advance for any help on what the next step is.

Tuttsi xx

[natweststaffmember]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

They are right on penalties so half of it is right. The second part is UTCCR reg 5(1) so I'm not entirely sure if an amendment might be in order.

[Amethyst]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Hi hunny

Yep thats pretty standard for DG & HSBC.

Nice of them to send the Judge the press summary too.

The judge will look at the documents and hopefully order a general application hearing to order directions or to decide on the strike out.

I would send in a letter, and cc to DG, that you don't agree, and why, and that you wish to continue your claim as all the issues arent covered by the test case judgment (as you included other issues in your POC ( have you a copy of your original POC on this claim?) and ask for permission to amend the claim taking the SC judgment into account.

He;ll probably respond asking for a formal application to lift the stay and amend the claim. You can either go in now before he makes any decisions on the letter, or wait till he does then argue the case. I think I'd go in first but it needs discussing really.

So firstly we need to see -

----Original POC
----Letter you sent to HSBC regarding their letter last week (if you sent one)
---- Hardship letter for this account
---- Original Stay order (just to see if judgey should go and ask DG to formally apply to lift stay then apply for dismissal or if they will get away with the letter)

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Hi Ame

I never sent the letter last week - due to work pressures & snow etc, so I presume that it can be dealt with now I guess with a letter to the court.

Here is the POC - which of course was a standard templated one dated May 2007

I am just going to search through Mr T's bank statement file to look for any letters describing the charges etc in case this will help with the letter.

Thanks

Tuttsi xx

[Amethyst]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Okay good We can amend easy enough - you havent got 6(2)b on there, and you also have supply of goods and services, and utca 1977 (never understood why that was in the original POCs tbh) - but its clear that the supreme court judgment doesnt cover ALL the arguments in the POC (even if they arent right), so we can do an amendment striking through the penalty aspects and expanding on the UTCCR argument for 5(1). Think SOGA needs coming off as does UTCA.
Also think you left your account number on the word doc so have pasted it below if u want to remove them.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Money claim for return of penalty charges applied to the Claimants bank account by the Defendant

1. The Claimant has an account numbered ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened over fifteen years ago.

2. During the period in which the Account has been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.
4. The Claimant contends that:
a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.
b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:
a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £1,208.50 and overdraft interest charged of £355.47.
b) Court costs of £120.00
c) Interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £0.34p per day OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.
d) Costs allowed by the Court.
6. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of
Goods and Services Act (1982). .

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

The stay order from Judge S Gerlis dated 31 Aug07- snr judge at Barnet
(lol -I used to know him in my single day when he was a mere solicitor but he does not recognise me now or does not want to)

The bits you added to the POC in different colours what is the significance of this?

[Amethyst]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

L. This case shall be stayed pending the determination in the High Court of the case between the Office of Fair Trading and various banks under folio number 2007 Folio 1186 ("the case").
3. Within 28 days of the determination of the case the parties shall inform the court as to what further directions they require or whether the case has been settled.
4. Permission to apply for further directions at any time
5. Costs Reserved.

[Amethyst]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Sorry Red bits definately out, purple bits, dubious lol

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

Is this letter OK or amend it as you see fit?


To Barnet County Court

Cc DG Solicitors

Claim No: xxxxxxxxx

Mr T v HSBC Bank


Dear Sir

Following the copy letter dated 15 Jan 2010 which was received from DG solicitors requesting a strike out of my claim with their clients HSBC …..I wish to advise that I do not agree with all of their letter as not all the issues were covered by the test case judgement as I included all my issues on my original money claim (POC)

I would like to make a formal application to amend my POC to take into account the Supreme Court Judgement and I would request that this claim continues to a hearing.

Yf

Mr T

[Amethyst]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

okay something like?


I have received a copy of a letter from the Defendant's solicitors in this case which was sent to the court on 15th January 2010.

As Claimant in this case I respectfully request that this case be heard upon its own merits and evidence presented to the Court. I contend that the recent Supreme Court ruling did not cover all issues contained within the Particulars of Claim and I respectfully request that the court grants permission for me to amend my particulars of claim to take the Judgment into account and issues directions to this end.



Did think about attaching draft directions ? what do you think. The stay asked '3. Within 28 days of the determination of the case the parties shall inform the court as to what further directions they require or whether the case has been settled.' so we could add draft directions something like ' Within 14 days of this order the Claimant serve on the Defendant revised particulars of claim else be struck out AND Within 14 days of the revised Particulars being served upon the Defendant the Defendant enter a defence to the claim else be struck out '' - wordings completely to cock but you see what I mean ? What do you think ?

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

okay something like?


I have received a copy of a letter from the Defendant's solicitors in this case which was sent to the court on 15th January 2010.

As Claimant in this case I respectfully request that this case be heard upon its own merits and evidence presented to the Court. I contend that the recent Supreme Court ruling did not cover all issues contained within the Particulars of Claim and I respectfully request that the court grants permission for me to amend my particulars of claim to take the Judgment into account and issues directions to this end.



Did think about attaching draft directions ? what do you think. The stay asked '3. Within 28 days of the determination of the case the parties shall inform the court as to what further directions they require or whether the case has been settled.' so we could add draft directions something like ' Within 14 days of this order the Claimant serve on the Defendant revised particulars of claim else be struck out AND Within 14 days of the revised Particulars being served upon the Defendant the Defendant enter a defence to the claim else be struck out '' - wordings completely to cock but you see what I mean ? What do you think ?

Totally agree that draft directions should be sent in accordance with the stay. I am really not good with these types of letters as I am not confident really but will try and have a go.

The only directions DG have stated is that the claim should be dismissed.

This letter will have to go on Monday to court in case the Judge deals with it quickly to dispense with matters.

Thanks

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

I have found tonight the Nov07 and Dec08 Terms and conditions for HSBC. The earlier ones will be on an earlier file which have been archived. Will this be of any help with the claims?


Tuttsi

[TUTTSI]

Re: As V Hsbc Personal Account

I now have a selection of T&C's going back to 1999.

Not sure what could be important but will try and have a read and see if anything pacifically changed.

One thing I have found is that in May 2005 HSBC borrowing money booklet says it won't penalise customers who go overdrawn accidently. I hope it can help and have copied and pasted it below.

Tuttsi

Our fair fees promise
We don't think it's fair to penalise customers who go overdrawn accidentally for small oversights, so should the unexpected happen:
• we won't charge overdraft review fees to
customers who haven't gone overdrawn, or
exceeded their overdraft limit, without prior
agreement in the last six months
• we won't charge overdraft fees to customers
who go overdrawn without prior agreement or
exceed their overdraft limit by £10 or less or
where subsequent increases are for £10 or less
• we won't charge overdraft review fees
totalling more than the amount by which
customers go overdrawn without prior
agreement or exceed their overdraft limit in
any one charging month
• these charges will be waived automatically.
Note: interest will always be payable at our standard overdraft rate on any overdrawn balance

Copied from a thread on CAG


Of note from these t&c is the following:

"Clause 7.13 has changed to: As well as charging interest under 7.10, we may also charge our applicable fee for reviewing overdrafts not agreed in advance on each occasion if your bank account goes overdrawn, or further overdrawn, without an agreed overdraft. We may also charge this fee when your bank account goes over, or further over, any agreed overdraft limit. This fee is to cover our management and administration costs (see the relevant price list for details of the fee)."