Is it safe to contest the CCA?

[Angry Cat]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Someone on CAG has told me that the OC's don't need to send a copy of the CCA at all (reconstructed or otherwise). Only the original t&c. Is this correct? If it is, how can you check the copy statements against the agreed interest rate? Oh, and Barclays are refusing to send me statements older than 6 years so it looks win-win for them. But can this be right?

No, incorrect!

Withe regards to statements, creditors normally only retain same for 6 years.
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The Unfair Relationships Test:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...act/oft854.pdf

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Amethyst in full Yoda mode

pmsl, proud he would be

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

AC

Withe regards to statements, creditors normally only retain same for 6 years.

I always thought that creditors had to retain all such information for 6 years after the account closed under the Money Laundering Acts.

Posts on other sites suggest that many if not all banks have retained full info of accounts back as far as the 1930's.

They can hide under the 'disproportionate effort' clause in the SAR regulations I believe to avoid locating older statements.

[Jester]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Actually, the Bank Of England requires financial institutions to keep such records and data for 11 years, not 6 years. There is regulatory legislation which enforces this. Unless the legislation has been withdrawn (and I doubt it has) then they are still bound by it (it also applies to telephone recordings though the time-limit is less on those).

How do I know all this ? Well I have been involved in the design of quite a few computer solutions for Financial Institutions down the years and it forms part of the Security requirements.

So they may claim they only keep it for 6 years, but it is more likely it is simply archived and they can't be arsed to find it.

I've not dealt with a bank for more than 16 months now, but I am sure I would have heard about it if the BoE had withdrawn such legislation.

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

lol data protection dont apply when your in litigation, they cant rely on he DPA period

there is a duty to carry out a search under the disclosure duties, thats where i would screw them down

[Jester]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I wasn't referring to Data Protection. I was referring to specific Bank Of England legislation. Can't remember the particular name of that legislation, but I may be able to find it again when I am back in work.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

AC



I always thought that creditors had to retain all such information for 6 years after the account closed under the Money Laundering Acts.

Posts on other sites suggest that many if not all banks have retained full info of accounts back as far as the 1930's.

They can hide under the 'disproportionate effort' clause in the SAR regulations I believe to avoid locating older statements.

Yes middenmiss, they do have to under The Money Laundering Regs ( I did not mention this fact, for fear of confusing some members). They also keep their own private Bank ledgers.

Re: SAR's, they can sometimes also use the legal exemption...basically they withold information.
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Incidentally and for the record, I have it black and white that RBS only retain data for 6 years;
I reminded them about the Money Laundering Regs;
RBS, chose to ignore my letter...
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lol data protection dont apply when your in litigation, they cant rely on he DPA period

there is a duty to carry out a search under the disclosure duties, thats where i would screw them down

Yes, that is the only way to obtain the information.

[leclerc]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

AC, with regards to statement information you know that it is a lie. Online banking goes back 7 years.

Online statements- RBS - The Royal Bank of Scotland
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In fact, I'll go further, my HR File from RBS Group included my P45(the original of which they chose to send to an old address) which went back to 1999 when I first worked for them. HR file was sent last year so, yes they do have the information if they look for it, lol!

[Angry Cat]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

AC, with regards to statement information you know that it is a lie. Online banking goes back 7 years.

Online statements- RBS - The Royal Bank of Scotland

Yes leclerc, I had deduced that the statement was economical with the truth.
Also, there is the little matter about their router/ghost accounts...

RBS, do not appear to retain their log comms, either?

[middenmess]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Has the general statement from the Banks about only keeping details for 6 years ever been challenged in a court case.

Has a LIP or even better a barrister ever asked the question..

''For how many years do you store your customer's account details or retain access to customer's account details?''

or more pertinently ''Back to what exact date do you retain my client's details and as this dispute between my client and yourselves has taken X months to reach this stage have you continued to destroy or otherwise dispose of their details during this period?''

If the answer to the first part comes back as 6 years then as people have actually received information older than the 6 years in the form of microfiched agreements etc. then surely they have put themselves to the sword.

If they state 6 years are they really suggesting that they have zillions of minions destroying gazillions of records every minute of every day as that data reaches it's 6th birthday?

[The Debt Star]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

there is a duty to carry out a search under the disclosure duties, thats where i would screw them down

Hi. Can you elaborate on this please?

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

PART 31 - DISCLOSURE AND INSPECTION OF DOCUMENTS - Ministry of Justice
Duty of search

31.7

(1) When giving standard disclosure, a party is required to make a reasonable search for documents falling within rule 31.6(b) or (c).

(2) The factors relevant in deciding the reasonableness of a search include the following –
(a) the number of documents involved;

(b) the nature and complexity of the proceedings;

(c) the ease and expense of retrieval of any particular document; and

(d) the significance of any document which is likely to be located during the search.


(3) Where a party has not searched for a category or class of document on the grounds that to do so would be unreasonable, he must state this in his disclosure statement and identify the category or class of document.
(Rule 31.10 makes provision for a disclosure statement)

[The Debt Star]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I fail to see how you can "screw them" on that. It makes no reference to any responsibilty to go back to the commencement of an account. They would just say "its too expensive to keep records for more than 6 years."

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

CCA Cases - 2009 & 2010

- in firms favour

Slater v Egg
Carey v HSBC
Amex v Brandon
Amex v Duffy
Kneale v Barclaycard
Blackhorse v Speak
SPML v Walker
Brooks v Northern Rock
Sternlight and Others v Various banks
Napier v HFC
Teasdale v HSBC
Brophy v HFC
Shaw v Nine Regions
Armstrong v Amex
Heath v SPML
McGuffick v RBS
Blackhorse v Hanson

Countycourt/forums
ccman v cabot (goldfish)
hunni2006 v cabot


- in consumers favour

Durkin v DSG Retail
Crutchely v Godebt
Yates v Nemo (PPI)
Woollerton v Blackhorse (PPI)
MBNA v Thouris (PPI)


countycourt/forum
MBNA v McCullagh
Arrow Global v Devlin
HFC Bank Limited v Mrs H
Phoenix Recoveries v Dr C
Cabot Financial UK Limited v Mr and Mrs P
DLC / Hillsden v Mr L

If I have any of these wrong please tell me and I'll switch them, or if there are any other positives. I've left of Bleman v Thomas as it was settled out of court because Blemain ditchd it as their case was flawed, and I completely understand a number of cases are settled out of court, however these are the growing precedents the bank have to rely on so out of court settlements are reducing when using cca arguments on the technical side.

Ref Blemain v Thomas -

on whether a failure to accurately state the repayments due under three secured loan agreements, due to the creditor's computer system being unable to calculate fractions of pence, rendered the agreements unenforceable under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 s.127(3). Considers whether the discrepancies could be ignored because de minimis.

And I'd love to have more positive for the consumer judgments from 2009/2010 please.

Crutchley v Godebt - need a copy of please

Has Cabot v hunni2006 (CAG) been reported/unreported anywhere, also shall we do a list of wins/losses on forums using CCA Arguments - might help research.

[The Debt Star]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

so you're basically agreeing that tackling them using standard disclosure is waste of time from the consumers perspective?