Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

[Sweeneyblue]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Right a lot has happen since. I last posted council complaints officer is in agreement with me ,but does not have the powers to force the return of my vehicle.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

My feelings about Parking Mad, BB, is that the programme-makers and the BBC would be wise to make it clear to viewers that the roadside operations by Whyte and Co are of questionable legality. Allowing the programme-makers and BBC the benefit of doubt, something along the lines of -

"The BBC and the makers of Parking Mad have been made aware that the actions of certificated bailiffs taking part in roadside operations with police officers, as featured in the programme, may not have been lawful at the time the programme was made or since it was broadcast. The BBC and the programme-makers wish to make it clear that they were not aware of this at the time of commissioning or during the making of the programme and received the information referred to following the programme being broadcast."

should be enough to be fair to the BBC and the programme-maker, but enough to have motorists who were "robbed" getting sufficiently worked-up to take action against Whyte & Co and the local authorities who employed them, as well as the Metropolitan Police.

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

So Parking Mad could well be the beginning of the end for the Enforcement industry. If that JBW bailiffs behaviour was par for the course JBW are in for a rocky ride, if he behaved like that where I live, he wouldn't have got out of the estate in one piece.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

The main weapon in the Enforcement industries arsenal is IGNORANCE to many people who get involved with Bailiffs rightly or wrongly do not know the Laws and Rules they must operate under this gets them in the situations which we read of

You are correct, Wales. However, people are much better informed than they have been previously. My feeling is that a bailiff or the civil enforcement industry will feck-up so badly, it will be a case that it cannot be ignored. The fact that Lord Tugendhat told Jamie Waller he could not have an injunction to stop a Panorama programme going out that showed a JBW bailiff behaving in the most appalling manner says an awful lot.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Does the Civil Enforcement Industry think they are at the last hope hotel, and are cruising between Jack and excrement and Jack has left town. I don't think so, they think they have now the licence to carry on regardless. Hopefully they will be wrong.

My suspicion is that the civil enforcement industry believes it has been given the green light to ramp up the bullying, cheating and intimidation with Parliament's blessing. Sooner rather than later a bailiff or civil enforcement company is going to feck up so seriously, not even the most disingenuous and corrupt senior civil servants and their political masters will be able to brush it under the carpet. The regulations are the elephant in the room, along with the bloody great lump in the carpet where successive administrations have attempted to hide serious wrongdoing and feck ups from the electorate. Not any more. People are much better informed that ever before.

[wales01man]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

The main weapon in the Enforcement industries arsenal is IGNORANCE to many people who get involved with Bailiffs rightly or wrongly do not know the Laws and Rules they must operate under this gets them in the situations which we read of

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

If the bailiff follows the law to the letter and does it outside the debtor's house or business address, if a business, and complies with the warrant/order conditions, then yes. However, I would be asking some pretty serious questions about the logic and lawfulness of a bailiff's actions, if they seized goods, knowing that doing so would mean the alleged debtor would be unable to satisfy the debt and fees, even after seizure of goods. Yes, BB, MoJ has well and truly fecked-up. However, there is nothing to prevent the courts striking-down the regulations and really fecking things up for the civil enforcement industry.

Does the Civil Enforcement Industry think they are at the last hope hotel, and are cruising between Jack and excrement and Jack has left town. I don't think so, they think they have now the licence to carry on regardless. Hopefully they will be wrong.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

If the bailiff follows the law to the letter and does it outside the debtor's house or business address, if a business, and complies with the warrant/order conditions, then yes. However, I would be asking some pretty serious questions about the logic and lawfulness of a bailiff's actions, if they seized goods, knowing that doing so would mean the alleged debtor would be unable to satisfy the debt and fees, even after seizure of goods. Yes, BB, MoJ has well and truly fecked-up. However, there is nothing to prevent the courts striking-down the regulations and really fecking things up for the civil enforcement industry.

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Problem is BB that if the EA has folllowed the rules the £1350 for tools max exemption may well lead to an increase in claims for IDS's disappearing benefits, like JSA from out of business and out of work plumbers electricians, builders etc.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Fair comment Sir Vere,
therefore the vehicle could well be fair game, and the roofer would need to either get another vehicle, or try to carry ladders and tools strapped to a bicycle or go by bus.

Would it be reasonable to expect a roofer, builder, electrician or plumber who have heavy spares and tools to use public transport to get to a site?

On the other hand, if the van and most of the tools are seized due to the £1350, which is better than the old £250, they may well find themselves attempting to claim JSA soon after any seizure of their specialist tools

I have a feeling that once the police learn that these roadside operations by bailiffs are unlawful, if not, illegal, and they have had their position compromised, as well as police forces being exposed to litigation and individual officers being exposed to disciplinary action which could result in dismissal from the police service, they are likely to turn on the civil enforcement industry in a way I suspect the civil enforcement industry will be neither expecting, or be prepared for, or like. The civil enforcement industry has survived and prospered by use of deceit, intimidation and compromising others' positions. You only get away with such behaviour for so long and then it comes on you with a vengeance.

[bluebottle]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Yes I agree with you on the circumstances as you describe but we need clarity regarding the situation post April 6th, as it would appear any vehicle worth more than £1350, not on HP or lease is fair game, so the butcher, baker, candlestick maker and Uncle Tom Cobley and all will be signing on for JSA when the EA has their motor away as it is worth more than £1350, so is above the value MOJ has allowed for tools that are not to be taken. All in all a nasty feck up

If the bailiff is acting in contravention of the conditions applicable to a warrant or other order, what you say pales into insignificance because the bailiff has acted outside the law.

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

My interpretation of the legislation is that the first £1,350 of one's tools are exempt from seizure, replacing the old £250 value.

Fair comment Sir Vere,
therefore the vehicle could well be fair game, and the roofer would need to either get another vehicle, or try to carry ladders and tools strapped to a bicycle or go by bus.

Would it be reasonable to expect a roofer, builder, electrician or plumber who have heavy spares and tools to use public transport to get to a site?

On the other hand, if the van and most of the tools are seized due to the £1350, which is better than the old £250, they may well find themselves attempting to claim JSA soon after any seizure of their specialist tools

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

There comes a problem if the Op's case came under the new rules from April 6th as if the cab was worth more than £1350, and not on finance looks like they could now lawfully have it away and flog it as it's value is greater than the £1350 allowed for tools, Nasty.

We need to be mindful of that little "gem" as it stands, but Sweenyblue should be OK as the seizure of his vehicle was patently unlawful under the rules as they were at the time.

My interpretation of the legislation is that the first £1,350 of one's tools are exempt from seizure, replacing the old £250 value.

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

Would it be a criminal offence for bailiff to snatch keys from cars ignition after you have refused to speak to them.
is there any case law?

Only if there is someone in the car.

If the car is unlocked, with the keys in the ignition and it is not "in use" the action is totally legal.

[bizzybob]

Re: Stop by police during routine check baliff took my pco reg.taxi

I doubt that any vehicle seized by bailiffs during one of these roadside operations has been lawfully seized, irrespective of whichever set of rules were in force at the time.

Strictly speaking, if a bailiff is acting in contravention of the conditions attached to a warrant or other order and seizes or attempts to seize a vehicle or other goods whilst acting in contravention of the conditions attached to a warrant or other order and the debtor or third party knows this, the debtor or third party may use as much reasonable force as is necessary to protect their vehicle, chattels or goods. Pushing a bailiff away would be reasonable force. In the scenario Baldrick describes, a bailiff reaching in through a car window is asking to have the window raised thereby trapping their arm or the back of their hand scratched with long fingernails. If a dog is in the car and just happens to do what comes naturally and sinks its teeth into the bailiff's hand, then my view is that it is the bailiff's own fault for crossing the line. A police officer would, in my view, be very foolish indeed and, potentially, be putting their job on the line, if they arrested the driver. I doubt very much that a stipendiary magistrate (District Judge) would take a favourable view of such action by police on hearing the bailiff was acting outside the law and the debtor or third party was, simply, defending their possessions as is their right to do so.

Yes I agree with you on the circumstances as you describe but we need clarity regarding the situation post April 6th, as it would appear any vehicle worth more than £1350, not on HP or lease is fair game, so the butcher, baker, candlestick maker and Uncle Tom Cobley and all will be signing on for JSA when the EA has their motor away as it is worth more than £1350, so is above the value MOJ has allowed for tools that are not to be taken. All in all a nasty feck up