Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

[Eloise01]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Horses are, however, "noble". I can't explain why if you don't already know but will try if you want.
.

It would not serve any purpose trying to explain because all you would be explaining is your sentiment based on your own personal experiences and cultural biases. It is not even the case that everyone in the UK would agree with you, but it is certainly the case that many, many cultures would disagree with you. We have no moral superiority over other peoples and other cultures. Our ways of thinking are not better than theirs. They are simply different. We may not understand them but that does not make our "morals" superior to theirs. This argument is getting dangerously close to assuming that they are.

It seems to me that there are only two issues realy for debate in this. The primary one is not whether we should or ought to be able to eat horsemeat or anything else - it is about being able to trust that when we are told we are buying beef, lamb, pork or rattlesnake, that that is what we are buying. The secondary one, which is also really a moral issue, albeit one that there is some, but not total consensus on in our society, is about the way in which slaughter animals are treated. Although I often find it deeply disturbing that a society which accords such sentiment to the slaughter of animals for consumption cannot have an equally enlightened and passionate debate about allowing human beings the right to die with dignity.

[labman]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Thank you for a very interesting, analytical post. I have very biased views on animals, so for that reason have not posted on this thread.

As for the right to die with dignity, well that is a whole different debate which would be incredibly interesting to read.

[Inca]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Having witnessed a long,lingering death of a loved one that sent me spiralling into a breakdown I am 100% in agreement with human euthanasia (with the obvious protections that would involve)
I am all for the 'passive euthanasia',where no human intervention takes place to halt the process of dying. My Dad in law had cancer which had spread to his brain,he was no longer capable of cognitive thought/process. He stopped eating and was spoon fed supplements,he wasn't put on a drip for fluids,Nature was left to take her course and he literally slipped away. He was seen by a Dr an hour before he died who was able to confirm he was in no pain(which was a huge relief to us). His 2 sons were able to hold his hand as he passed away,it was a lovely way to go (if you get what I mean). I hope when my time comes I just fall off my perch quickly,I have told my family..if anything happens and I cannot be who I am now,,don't keep me alive just because you don't want me to go.
As for 'eating meat'..I'm a hypocrite,,I eat cattle,pigs,sheep and the 'usual' stuff,,but ducks rabbits etc and especially horses wouldn't pass my lips,,thats choice not morals though.

[leclerc]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

I think Eloise has summed it up to a t. The issue is NOT whether you would eat horsemeat of dogmeat or catmeat but about the fact that we have to be able to trust that if we are told something is Beef that it is beef. That is the crux of the issue. We have no high moral grounds over what we eat to what others eat since clearly there are cultural and societal reasons for that.
I eat meat(please don't titter at that comment ). I am a carnivore and I have eaten frogs legs, I have eaten horsemeat, and I would love to try as much meat as possible in this lifetime.

With regards to welfare issues, am not sure if anyone saw the program a few years ago on BBC3 called "kill it, cook it, eat it" which took people through the process of a live animal, the abattoir where the people saw what happens there to the dinner. It was a very good program and some people's habbits changed as a result of being involved in the program.

[Eloise01]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

I am a carnivore and I have eaten frogs legs, I have eaten horsemeat, and I would love to try as much meat as possible in this lifetime.

I would have to check out how it would be possible (and if it would be possible) to import, but next time I visit the in-laws I will try to get you some rattlesnake. It's actually quite tasty! Alternatively, if you are ever in Arizona, just let me know and I'll have the sister in law cook some up for you!


But I agree about moral high grounds. They make me extremely uncomfortable, After all, the Third Reich started out on the basis of being morally superior, and look where that got us. I'm a great advocate of a good debate (and I'm with those who can't eat rabbit - never kept one as a pet, but I think Watership Down may be responsible for my inability to think of it as anything other than fluffy and cute!), but we have to be careful to recognise that as soon as we resort to claiming moral right as our defence, we are lining up with some very dubious characters and some pretty horrendous actions. Slavery, of course, was "morally right" until we decided that it was "morally wrong". "Morals" don't always lead to good outcomes.

[jon1965]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Leclerc why should we titter about you liking meat?

Personally I love a good sausage

[MissFM]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Fan of yours as I am, Eloise, it really is a bit rich to extrapolate from the expressed view that horses are noble creatures the idea that such a view shows cultural bigotry, is responsible for the rise of the Third Reich, the Slave Trade and also supports a callous attitude to voluntary euthanasia. As you rightly guessed this view is based on experience - the same depth of experience that leads me to believe humans to be largely ignoble creatures.:nod:

Some things can be morally "right" for some people and "wrong" for others according to conscience - if there are moral absolutes then probably these don't apply in the case of whether or not you choose to tuck into something that is already dead.

This thread appeared to me to be rather tongue in cheek hence I have taken a polar view with which I knew few would agree. I also question the idea that whether or not people agree with you, or how many do, is any indication of moral probity. I do care passionately about animal welfare and do believe that if we are to eat animals or exploit them in other ways then we must do so humanely; and I don't think it's priggish and "taking the moral high ground" to object to abuses. It is a demonstrable truth that it is nigh impossible to kill horses on an industrial scale without causing an unacceptable degree of suffering. I would imagine the same would be true, for example, of elephants and apes.

Your point about one culture being as good as another morally also strikes me as dubious, qv the Third Reich as just one example.

[Sleepyhead]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Couple weeks ago befor scandle broke news,i had bought a pkt 4 beef burgers from A***,whilst eating them i remember thinking "that dont taste like beef".Though still managed to eat all 4 of them.
Dont mind eating horse burgers if i am paying horse burg prices.With all these benefit cuts would welcome horse meat.

Whats in the tin stuff,Beef casserole and such.This must have been going on for time.lol.

[Eloise01]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Fan of yours as I am, Eloise, it really is a bit rich to extrapolate from the expressed view that horses are noble creatures the idea that such a view shows cultural bigotry, is responsible for the rise of the Third Reich, the Slave Trade and also supports a callous attitude to voluntary euthanasia. As you rightly guessed this view is based on experience - the same depth of experience that leads me to believe humans to be largely ignoble creatures.:nod: I did not do so. I pointed out that claiming the "moral highground" on matters which are solely based on personal opinion and not factual imperatives, and which you then feel entitles you to expect others to agree with your position, can lead to some interesting bedfellows. You are entitled to your opinion, but to claim that this is a moral position and therefore should be held by everyone else is wrong. These are your personal "morals" - they are nobody elses. Some people may agree with you, others will not. It is not morally wrong to eat horses - it is simply your opinion.

Some things can be morally "right" for some people and "wrong" for others according to conscience - if there are moral absolutes then probably these don't apply in the case of whether or not you choose to tuck into something that is already dead.

This thread appeared to me to be rather tongue in cheek hence I have taken a polar view with which I knew few would agree. I also question the idea that whether or not people agree with you, or how many do, is any indication of moral probity. I do care passionately about animal welfare and do believe that if we are to eat animals or exploit them in other ways then we must do so humanely; and I don't think it's priggish and "taking the moral high ground" to object to abuses. It is a demonstrable truth that it is nigh impossible to kill horses on an industrial scale without causing an unacceptable degree of suffering. I would imagine the same would be true, for example, of elephants and apes.

Your point about one culture being as good as another morally also strikes me as dubious, qv the Third Reich as just one example.
The Third Reich was not a culture, it was a political movement. Admittedly, one of the first to adopt a determined cultural aspect to its politics, but still a political movement. And I did not say that one culture is as good as another - I said that the morals of a culture are not a basis upon which to determine what is better or worse - morals do not determine right and wrong except for individuals. The Third Reich started out claiming moral superiority over Jews and other groups. This "moral highground" formed the basis upon which they built a political ethic which denied people their human rights and ultimately led to them being classified as sub-human, and then to the concentration camps and death camps. In much the same way that some animal rights activists move from a "moral highground" based on their beliefs about the rights of animals - which are legitimate opinions but nothing more than opinions - to violent means which endanger, and sometimes take, human life in their "political expression" of their personal morals.

I think you are missing the point of what I was saying, which is that what is acceptable or unacceptable in terms of moral stances for an individual is not binding on everyone else, and when you get the the point of saying that is is or should be, then you are treading on dangerous ground. You obviously love horses and see something unique and "noble" about them. Not everyone agrees with you. That does not make you wrong - but it does not make them wrong either. You obviously took what I said very personally - and I did not mean to offend if I did - but that simply demonstrates the point I was making; that personal moral position or sentiment is personal. I do not, as it happens, believe that horses are "noble" and I am not opposed to their consumption for food. Nor do I believe that they are any more or less affected by the way that slaughter for food consumption is carried out than other animals. I may be "uncomfortable" at times with the reality of industrial slaughtering processes, but I also personally believe that whilst every attempt should be made to act as humanely as possible, I have to accept that the process is necessary to the mass production of food. I eat meat, therefore I cannot afford the luxury of being squeamish about it.

The title of this thread was that it is morally wrong to eat horse. I do not agree. I do, however, think it is morally, and legally, wrong to tell me that I am eating beef when I am eating horse.

[gravytrain]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

I think everyone has there own opinion, and this is good.
Personally as said earlier i just object to it saying beef on the tin and being horse inside, I would object the same if it were pork inside.

As for the "worth" of horses compared to other animals, personally again I have never been able to see it. I had a pony when I was younger and grew up next to a farm, we had sheep and cattle in our garden most mornings (as the fence wasn't up to much).

To be honest i would put he intelligence level of a horse something similar to a cow, perhaps a little higher than a sheep, nowhere near that of a dog or a cat sorry.

They lovely looking animals of course but for me I think there has always been a degree of anthropomorphism involved, perhaps.

[MissFM]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

The only real disagreement we have is on the psychic nature of horses - on that we can but agee to differ (until, of course, you see the light lol) . I knew it would be suicidal to enter into any argument with you, Eloise, you are far too silver-tongued.

You have, however, done a very lawyerly thing (I have had it decribed to me as the "man of straw" approach to demolishing an opponent, beloved of barristers and politicians) in that you have taken what I actually said (a personal belief and a personal moral imperative) pushed it beyond the pale (into dictating how everyone else should live), associated it with many world evils (I note that the implication of being a Holocaust denier, as well as an animal rights activist, has now crept in) - and Bob's your uncle, job done.

As a matter of interest, in cultures (such as France) where eating horse meat is the norm, they have developed over the centuries cold-blooded breeds of heavy horse specifically to do heavy work then to eat at the end of their working life. These animals are very phlegmatic (of course, if you were me, you would say philosophical lol) and extremely efficient converters of grass and grain into animal protein.

"I eat meat, therefore I cannot afford the luxury of being squeamish about it."

I eat meat, therefore have the responsibility to take every possible care that it is humanely produced.

The dishonesty prevalent in the food industry is indeed a moral and legal issue.

[gravytrain]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

You have, however, done a very lawyerly thing (I have had it decribed to me as the "man of straw" approach to demolishing an opponent, beloved of barristers and politicians) in that you have taken what I actually said (a personal belief and a personal moral imperative) pushed it beyond the pale (into dictating how everyone else should live), associated it with many world evils (I note that the implication of being a Holocaust denier, as well as an animal rights activist, has now crept in) - and Bob's your uncle, job done.

Godwins law ?

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/godwins-law

[MIKE770]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Horse meat = use to have to walk to Town and buy a pound (weight) of Horse Meat which use to be boiled for the Dog from a pet shop, it was cheaper than tinned Dog food, that was in the early 1950s

[MissFM]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Our dogs had Kangaroo

[gravytrain]

Re: Morally wrong to eat horses!!!

Our dogs had Kangaroo

Oh no, not Skippy !!