Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

[Amethyst]

The meeting this morning with the OFT's Retail Banking Team has concluded and it was very successful and beneficial on both sides. Budgie, EXC, Celestine and Tom will update further later on.

We're unable to go too in depth as to specifics while issues are ongoing but the meeting covered a number of areas mainly focussing on what will happen with current accounts in the future.

Beagles have been asked to submit a response to the PCA consultation document and we have been working on this over the past few weeks and the meeting has given us a further focus for this response. Following submission we intend to meet again with the OFT to discuss the way forward.


This is the OFT's PCA Consultation paper - http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/rep...oft1005con.pdf

[EXC]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Briefly it was a very good meet.

The most successful aspect for me is that we were able to inform them of issues at the coal-face that they would not get from the likes of Which & CAB. We certainly made them aware of sevsral important things they were not aware of.

[Budgie]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

It was a very good first meeting and a suitable platform on which to build what will hopefully develop into a mutually beneficial and fruitful relationship between Legal Beagles and the OFT.

Ame will shortly post up a list of the various concerns and discussion points that were presented to the OFT on behalf of the Legal Beagles site.

This meeting basically covered the findings of the OFT's PCA report and suggested remedies. The OFT are in the process of compiling a detailed list of suggested remedies and we certainly added some new ideas to their list during today's meeting.

Beagles may be aware that we have been invited to compile a formal response to the OFT's consultation document and I believe we all felt that the discussions today gave us a much clearer idea of the sort of thing that the OFT would like us to include in our report.

In fact, we can say that today we were actively encouraged by the OFT to expand upon some of the new ideas and viewpoints we presented when we submit our more formal response to the consultation document.

The OFT primarily wish to see anecdotal evidence in support of any proposed concerns and remedies. So over the next few weeks we will be requesting that Beagles all pull together and contribute to what we plan will be substantial, informative, innovative and justifiable consultation response.

The plan from here onwards is for us to prepare and then post up a draft outline of our proposed response on the site and then for all Beagles to assist in providing the "meat on the bones" in the form of anecdotal background and responses to some polls and questionaires that we will also prepare and post.

This is our opportunity to influence the future of personal current accounts in the UK. So I hope that Beagles will really get behind this consultation report and offer their full support.

Today proved that the OFT are keen to hear our views and so we must make sure that we follow this through. Otherwise, how can we expect them to act upon them.

Budgie

[Celestine]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

In fact, we can say that today we were actively encouraged by the OFT to expand upon some of the new ideas and viewpoints we presented when we submit our more formal response to the consultation document.

I also agree that today was a really positive step forward. The conversation was very future facing in that we discussed likely events after the test case concludes.

We were keen to make the OFT aware that a great deal of tax payers money will have been wasted on the test case if the banks are allowed to simply alter their T&Cs and continue charging huge amounts of money.

The OFT wanted to know what would be needed to restore consumer confidence in the banking sector whilst also improving competition between the banks. It would be great to get feedback on this subject to include in the consultation document.

The deadline is 31st October so we need to really gather as much as possible.

[HaliMac]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Thanks to everyone for sacrificing their own time for the greater good like this. It is much appreciated; and good to know that LB is being instrumental (and influential) behind the scenes of the public campaign, as well as on the board.

:thumb:

[Amethyst]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Public Discussion regarding the response to the consultation document - Response and consultation to OFT PCA Report - Legal Beagles

[TUTTSI]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Cel, did you remember the camera, and have you any pictures!

Glad it was a positive meeting and it appears the OFT are now wanting to listen to the little people (Joe Public).

Well done

xx

[scottishlass]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Well Done to all involved

[Wild Billy]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Well done indeed. This is a fantastic example of how a measured, considered approach to dealing with the OFT can create a productive and mutually beneficial relationship. The Beaglers involved deserve a great deal of credit for approaching it with the right attitude.

By way of contrast, I read with some interest the latest newsletter from the Penalty Charges website- it is interesting that a protest is described as a "meeting" and to see the inference that it led to the legal action.

We at penalty charges did not attended a recent meeting with the OFT however we are glad that a least one site attend. (Maybe the OFT was worried about inviting PC being the founding site behind the bank charges campaign. We note that Which and the CAB were also invited to a meeting with the OFT.

Penalty Charges has already attended two Meetings with the OFT one many years ago when Stephen Hone Organised the first protest outside the OFT to try and compel the OFT to take the legal action it is now doing. Penalty Charges found both meetings to be very uneventful as the OFT kept hiding behind Acts, and would never commit to or disclose anything.

[EXC]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Thanks.

I like to think that Beagles realised that the campaign has moved on since the days of reclaiming and county court claims. It's all about infuencing the regulators now and so the OFT is where it's at.

''Penalty Charges is considering organizing a large protest outside the FSA office....''

It's like watching Groundhog Day 2, all over again.

[Budgie]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Key points raised during meeting with the OFT

Note : The meeting was effectively conducted under Chatham House type rules and we undertook not to detail the OFT’s specific response on any one topic of discussion. However we can confirm that most of our points appeared to have been well received and it was frequently requested that we provide further explanations and anecdotal authority and expand upon our ideas within our response to the consultation document.

Following is a list of the key points raised by Legal Beagles in the meeting with the OFT yesterday :-

That Customers do not believe that greater self regulation would restore Consumer confidence in the banking system.

That charging aspects of PCA’s should be dealt with by independent and enforced regulation, standardisation of terms and charges and PIL across Banks and account types.

That positive contributory effects from independent enforced regulation would assist in achieving the OFT’s desires in relation to ease of switching and competition in the PCA market place.

That Banking is increasingly becoming more of a utility service and should be regulated accordingly. A great quote from Celestine "Even power Suppliers have an independent Regulator. Banking is far more important and is therefore even more deserving of its own dedicated and independant Regulator".

That all the OFT’s hard work on the test case could amount to nothing if the banks are allowed to continue to tinker with T&Cs to make penalty charges 'lawful'. That this scenario would cause huge damage to the already beleagured UK banking industry. An excellent quote from Celestine “'How can the Banks be trusted to self regulate in the future when even now, in the full spotlight of the test case, they are finding ever new creative ways to generate income from Customers in financial difficulty”.

That recent changes to some Banks terms charging regimes ( Barclays, Lloyds and Abbey in particular ) are leading to higher rather than lower charges for some Customers. A parallel was drawn with the credit card scenario and the further development of a double charging nature for charging structures after publication of the OFT report in April 2006.

That there is low Consumer confidence in the various designated authorities ( owing to the colliding responsibilities of these Authorities ) and the Banks themselves.

That there is a need to restore confidence so as to encourage greater Consumer participation in driving competition in the PCA market.

That uncoupling of PCA’s is required from other Bank services such as loans, mortgages, credit cards etc so as to delimit the current Customer perception in terms of ease of switching PCA’s.

That some form of time related capping of charges is required, on a weekly, monthly, yearly basis with identified trigger levels that then require some form of intervention and assistance for Consumers who approach or pass these capped charging levels.

That attention needs to be paid to the downward spiral of debt scenario and how the existing direct debit system, coupled with charges significantly contributes to this downward spiral.

That attention needs to be paid to development of the direct debit mechanism, a method of placing a temporary suspension of direct debits which could then be reinstated rather than having to be re submitted from scratch. Allowing Consumers greater flexibility with regards to self management of finances.

That some form of grace period should be implemented allowing Customers to arrange closure of overdrafts and repayment arrangements BEFORE an account is passed to debt collection. It is often the case that Customers are not allowed the opportunity to sort finances when an account or overdraft is out of control and charges are piling up because Banks force you to wait to be defaulted before they will assist you. This does not help or encourage Consumers to try and sort out problems before they become too serious.

That attention should be paid to the cross subsidy of the various banking services from the current charging regimes. Exposure of the “Free if in credit banking model”. Inevitability of an annual fee type approach for PCA’s.

Northern Ireland report and the swathe of proposed remedies.

Republic of Eire banking model. Ulster Bank - Highest level of Eire Bank charges ¼ to 1/3rd of level of UK Banks

And an excellent quote from Tom Brennan “ It is common knowledge that Banks currently have to be seen to be making extreme profits otherwise they are not seen to actually be profitable”.

We appreciate that some Beagles may be disappointed that we don’t have specific answers to some of the questions that were asked on the notification of meeting thread. Although we did manage to raise most of the points there was a time limit placed upon the meeting. Additionally the meeting actually developed into a very forward looking and remedy orientated discussion. We also accept that as the test case is still ongoing a Government Department couldn’t be expected to offer any specific views on it as they are a party to the litigation.

[TANZARELLI]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Good work folks. Sounds very positive from the above post Bud.

[righty]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

Excellent

Was there any mention of the benefits of the poor & vulnerable being swallowed up by charges & once applied there being little or no chance of recovery??

[Amethyst]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

This was covered in this area

That some form of grace period should be implemented allowing Customers to arrange closure of overdrafts and repayment arrangements BEFORE an account is passed to debt collection. It is often the case that Customers are not allowed the opportunity to sort finances when an account or overdraft is out of control and charges are piling up because Banks force you to wait to be defaulted before they will assist you. This does not help or encourage Consumers to try and sort out problems before they become too serious.

[Budgie]

Re: Beagles meet the OFT - 22nd September 2008

and also in the downward spiral of debt discussion Righty.