Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

[sidstation]

Marstons bailiff problem - follow up information.

First of all, thank you all for replying to my original post (Another Marstons Case - please help!). It was really useful. Labman suggested I wait until I received a written breakdown of the fees before going forward with dealing with the case (thanks, Labman!). They've arrived now so I wonder if anyone can help me with this.

Anyway, here's my story again, without the waffly bits.

- Last year my partner picked up a Derbyshire CC parking fine in my car and we predictably didn't do anything about it.
- We then got a letter on the 30th of January demanding £280.82 from Marstons bailiff, Mr ********.
- I immediately spoke to the bailiff asking for a written breakdown of the fees, when they were incurred, etc. He refused as it was "against company procedure".
- I wrote to Marston's on the 7th of February requesting this breakdown, and in the meantime told the bailiff that I wouldn't pay anything until I had received it. He agreed not to attend my property until I'd got the info, after checking with Marstons that I had indeed contacted them (he'd been phoning me once every three or so days prior to this).
- However, on the 28th of Feb, he attended my property again, adding some fees on to my bill.
- Finally, on the 7th of March I received the breakdown from Marstons. Here it is:

Penalty Charge - £82
Letter Fee - £11.20 - incurred December 23rd 2012 (but not received by me!)
1st Levy Fee - £28.00 - incurred 30th Jan
2nd Levy Fee - £33.94 - incurred 28th Feb
Attendance to remove fee - £126.40 - incurred 30th Jan
VAT - £33.12
TOTAL - £280.82

My questions regarding this are:
1 - do these amounts seem reasonable or are they too much?
2 - can the bailiff charge me for a Levy Fee and an Attendance to Remove fee on the same day?
3 - It appears the Bailiff tried to overcharge me initially, charging me £280.82 in January for a bill that only totalled this amount after his second visit in February! Is this legal? And can this be used as evidence to reduce the total, or even to help me pay only the original fine?
4 - Is it also legal to attend my property even though I was awaiting information from Marstons - and had an agreement with the Bailiff not to do so?

What made me chuckle was that the fee incurred on the 28th of Feb just so happens to exactly make up the sum the bailiff originally tried to charge in Jan. Also, regarding everyone's discussion of the VAT, it seems Marstons apply this only to the total - or they have in this case.

Anyway, thank you in advance for any replies and useful stuff. I'm really hoping to try and settle this now. I don't want to pay the bailiff anything other than the parking fine really, especially as he has been aggressive, bullying and deceitful - and because the car my partner got the fine in has recently blown up.

Cheers.

[bluebottle]

Re: Marstons bailiff problem - follow up information.

First of all, thank you all for replying to my original post (Another Marstons Case - please help!). It was really useful. Labman suggested I wait until I received a written breakdown of the fees before going forward with dealing with the case (thanks, Labman!). They've arrived now so I wonder if anyone can help me with this.

Anyway, here's my story again, without the waffly bits.

- Last year my partner picked up a Derbyshire CC parking fine in my car and we predictably didn't do anything about it.
- We then got a letter on the 30th of January demanding £280.82 from Marstons bailiff, Mr ********.
- I immediately spoke to the bailiff asking for a written breakdown of the fees, when they were incurred, etc. He refused as it was "against company procedure". Total crap. It's a legal requirement.
- I wrote to Marston's on the 7th of February requesting this breakdown, and in the meantime told the bailiff that I wouldn't pay anything until I had received it. He agreed not to attend my property until I'd got the info, after checking with Marstons that I had indeed contacted them (he'd been phoning me once every three or so days prior to this).
- However, on the 28th of Feb, he attended my property again, adding some fees on to my bill. What was the reason for his visit, other than to add fees?
- Finally, on the 7th of March I received the breakdown from Marstons. Here it is:

Penalty Charge - £82
Letter Fee - £11.20 - incurred December 23rd 2012 (but not received by me!) Allowable
1st Levy Fee - £28.00 - incurred 30th Jan Allowable
2nd Levy Fee - £33.94 - incurred 28th Feb Questionable
Attendance to remove fee - £126.40 - incurred 30th Jan Cannot be charged on same date as a levy. Therefore, illegal charge.
VAT - £33.12 £14.63, actually. Allows for 2nd Levy Fee, provided such is lawful.
TOTAL - £280.82 Should be £169.77

My questions regarding this are:
1 - do these amounts seem reasonable or are they too much? See comments above
2 - can the bailiff charge me for a Levy Fee and an Attendance to Remove fee on the same day? See comments above.
3 - It appears the Bailiff tried to overcharge me initially, charging me £280.82 in January for a bill that only totalled this amount after his second visit in February! Is this legal? And can this be used as evidence to reduce the total, or even to help me pay only the original fine? Imposing fees upfront is fraud, which is why it is illegal to charge levy and removal fees on the same date. Also, you have to be given an opportunity to pay.
4 - Is it also legal to attend my property even though I was awaiting information from Marstons - and had an agreement with the Bailiff not to do so? The bailiff has to prove the visit was necessary and legitimate. Otherwise, he can go whistle for the 2nd Visit Fee.

What made me chuckle was that the fee incurred on the 28th of Feb just so happens to exactly make up the sum the bailiff originally tried to charge in Jan. Also, regarding everyone's discussion of the VAT, it seems Marstons apply this only to the total - or they have in this case.

Anyway, thank you in advance for any replies and useful stuff. I'm really hoping to try and settle this now. I don't want to pay the bailiff anything other than the parking fine really, especially as he has been aggressive, bullying and deceitful - and because the car my partner got the fine in has recently blown up.

Cheers.

@@@@

[sidstation]

Re: Marstons bailiff problem - follow up information.

Thank you Bluebottle, that's really helpful.

Is there anywhere where I can find the law that shows the bailiff cannot charge Levy fees and Attendance of Removal Fees on the same day?

Also, does anyone have any advice regarding how I approach the bailiff and Marstons with this information?

Once again, many thanks.

[bluebottle]

Re: Marstons bailiff problem - follow up information.

Marstons already know this, but they hope you don't. When they realise you've done your homework and can catch them out, they get well p*ssed-off.

Regarding the ATR fees, a bailiff can only charge these once he/she has removed goods from your home. In order to do this, they must first have a valid and lawful levy and must give you a minimum of five days to pay before removing goods. If they cannot obtain a levy, they cannot remove and, subsequently, cannot charge ATR fees.

Attempting to charge ATR fees in advance is a criminal offence under Section 2, Fraud Act 2006 (Fraud by False Misrepresentation).

You first need to put the following questions to Marstons -

1. Do you have a valid and lawful levy?
2. What evidence do you have to substantiate the two Visits for which you are claiming fees?

Once you get answers to these two questions, come back onto this thread and we'll see what further help you need.

[CleverClogs]

Re: Marstons bailiff problem - follow up information.

You first need to put the following questions to Marstons -

1. Do you have a valid and lawful levy and when was it made?
2. What evidence do you have to substantiate the two Visits for which you are claiming fees?

IFYPFY.

[sidstation]

Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

Hello again,

A few months ago I posted about a Marston's bailiff aggressively pursuing me for a parking fine and seemingly making up the charges that he imposed.

The advice from forum members was great: I managed to catch him out imposing greater charges than Marstons were charging for the same work, and also charging for work that he had not already performed. I wrote to Marston's and they weren't interested so, on the advice of forum members, I filled out a Form 4 Complaint form, attached all the relevant information and sent it off to the courts.

The hearing was set for early October 2013, but the judge cancelled 3 days before it was due to occur. The second hearing was set for December, but this time Marston's bailiff couldn't make and it was cancelled. (I had arranged for time off work to attend both hearings). My job requires me to be away for a couple of weeks sometimes, and after Christmas I was away from the 2nd until the 13th of Jan. In which time, a letter informing me of the new court date was sent to my address and the trial bundle. Obviously I didn't attend - I didn't know - and this morning I received the inevitable letter from the court telling me that no action will be taken against the honourable Mr......, Marstons' bailiff.

So this is why I'm posting here again.

Can anyone tell me where this leave me with regards to the charges Marstons were imposing?

Is there any recourse for me to complain about the finding of the judge?

FYI, these are the details from my Form 4 Complaint, outlining what I disagreed with:

Firstly, when on the 30.01.13 I received a hand-delivered removal demanding £280.72 from Mr Edwards (the first correspondence I have received from Marston), I requested a written breakdown of when and how this fee has been incurred from the bailiff – something I am legally entitled to receive prior to making any payment under the Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts (Certificated Bailiffs) Regulations 1993 and 2003. Mr Edwards verbally refused to provide this, claiming that it was against company policy to give out such information. As such, on 07.02.13 I emailed Marston's complaints department to request this breakdown; and verbally agreed with Mr Edwards that no further attendances would be made until this information was provided. On the 28th of February, however, Mr Edwards again attended my property, increasing the total to £321.44.

Secondly, when on the 7th of March I received the written breakdown from Marston, it became clear that both Marston and Mr Edwards were attempting to charge for work not yet performed by the company, and with inconsistencies between the amounts charged by either party. The breakdown from Marstons read as follows: Penalty Charge - £82; Letter Fee - £11.20 incurred Dec 28th 2012 (but not received by myself); 1st Levy Fee - £28.00 incurred 30th Jan; 2nd Levy Fee - £33.94 incurred 28th Feb; Attendance to remove fee - £126.40 incurred 30th Jan; VAT - £33.12; TOTAL - £280.82. According to Mr Edwards, the total for the same period and number of visits was £321.44, whilst also charging £280.82 on the 30.01.13 for his first to visit, excluding the cost of the second visit fee! This suggests that both 1st and 2nd levy fees were inflated by both Mr Edwards and Marston.

Thirdly, Mr. Edwards charged an Attendance to Remove Fee of £126.40 before any valid and lawful levy was made on my goods. This was also charged on the same day as making his first visit to my property. Mr Edwards appears to be imposing fees in advance of work undertaken without allowing any opportunity to pay.

Any help will be very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance!

[CleverClogs]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

I sincerely hope that no member of this site suggested that you should submit a Form 4 complaint. They rarely work and often land the complainant having to pay thousands in costs!

Have you paid the buggers yet?

Which council is it?

[sidstation]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

No, I haven't paid them yet; but I'm more than happy to pay the fine, not their bullsh*t charges!

It's Sheffield that issued the bailiff's warrant, but the offence was in Derbyshire (Matlock, I think is their court).

So, are you saying I'm exposed to paying Marston's legal fees from this?

Cheers.

[Amethyst]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

The original case threads. http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...help!&p=317524 and http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...ation&p=326144 (now merged to this thread)

[Amethyst]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

The hearing was set for early October 2013, but the judge cancelled 3 days before it was due to occur. The second hearing was set for December, but this time Marston's bailiff couldn't make and it was cancelled. (I had arranged for time off work to attend both hearings). My job requires me to be away for a couple of weeks sometimes, and after Christmas I was away from the 2nd until the 13th of Jan. In which time, a letter informing me of the new court date was sent to my address and the trial bundle. Obviously I didn't attend - I didn't know - and this morning I received the inevitable letter from the court telling me that no action will be taken against the honourable Mr......, Marstons' bailiff.

What date was the letter sent and what date was the court date ? (seems very short notice if the letter arrived and the hearing had within 2 weeks)

Did Marstons attend the hearing ?

[bluebottle]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

Did you receive any order for costs from the court? If you are liable for costs, the court would have sent you a copy of such an order.

I'll be honest with you and say that whoever advised you to submit a Form 4 complaint needs a good hard kick up their backside. Form 4 is for transgressions by bailiffs that are so serious it brings into question their fitness to act as a bailiff. And although overcharging by a bailiff can result in them being made the subject of a Form 4 complaint, it has to be of such magnitude that it brings into question their fitness to act as a bailiff. The overcharging in your case does no fall into this category. It is excessive, yes, and for work not carried out, but it is not, in my opinion, anywhere near serious enough to warrant submitting a Form 4.

If you have achieved anything, it is that the bailiff has had a close shave. If the judge had decided to relieve him of his bailiff's certificate, it would have been "Jobseeker's Allowance here I come," for the bailiff.

How can Sheffield Council issue a warrant for a contravention that occurred in another local authority area? They have no lawful authority to do so. I have a suspicion that the actions of Marstons, in this matter, were ultra vires ab initio (unlawful from the outset) due to them being in possession of a warrant issued by a local authority that, in all probability, had no lawful authority to issue it, making the warrant potentially invalid.

[ploddertom]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

From a quick read of the original post nobdy advised filing a Form 4 - can you clarify where this came from?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Marstons bailiff problem - follow up information.

Section 2, Fraud Act 2006 (Fraud by False Misrepresentation).

Is there also Fraud by Genuine Misrepresentation?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

From a quick read of the original post nobdy advised filing a Form 4 - can you clarify where this came from?

I'd guess that it was suggested by Happy Entrails, and elsewhere.

[sidstation]

Re: Marstons - Overcharging Me -HELP PLEASE!

The letter was sent from Marston's solicitor and dated the 3rd of January; it came with the trial bundle. I didn't have anything from the Court. Yes, I think Marston's solicitor attended the hearing.

Oh, the first court date was the 11th of October, the second date was the 12th of December, and the hearing was on the 10th of January.

Cheers