Sapphire v Natwest - SORTED !

[Sapphire]

You need details of the guarantee that Nat West allege has been breached and also details of how this guarantee was secured, if at all.
How would I get the paperwork required, should I just send or fax a letter over to Cobbetts ? Would this help to stall the court ? Amy & Cel mentioned a CPR 18, how/what do I do with one of them ?

Does their claim detail any of this?
I have posted all the details of the claim on #1 & #2. Is that any good ?

[Guest]

In order to claim this money back from Les, the bank need to show that he owes it. It is interesting to note that in your post #2 at point 4, their claim states "From the said date the claimant has made money advances to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Limited together with interest, commission and banking charges."

Now, does Les owe the money or xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Limited?

If this company is no longer trading then you need to establish whether or not Les personally guarranteed the debts of xxxxxxxxxxxxx Limited and if so, how.

If the only security was xxxxxxxx and that is now sold, then the bank do not have a secured debt - but if Les personally guarranteed the money then they can come after him as an individual for it.

They state that they intend to rely on the "contract of guarantee" so you need a copy of this - and they need to send you one. Have Cobbetts send a copy or you cannot even attempt to defend this.

[Sapphire]

So do you suggest that I write and fax Cobbetts asking for a copy of the contract of guarantee ?

What about the court, what should I do about that, If I don't do something they will go ahead with the case and I won't have defended will I.

Sorry to appear stupid but this has confused me no end.

[Amethyst]

you need to get your acknowledgement of service in Sapph - do that with intent to defend now just so you have your 28 days sorted to orgainse the defence - just gets it out of the way. You can do it online on the MCOL site - the log in password should be on the front of the N1....get that done then concentrate on the defence parts.

[Sapphire]

you need to get your acknowledgement of service in Sapph - do that with intent to defend now just so you have your 28 days sorted to orgainse the defence - just gets it out of the way. You can do it online on the MCOL site - the log in password should be on the front of the N1....get that done then concentrate on the defence parts.

Blimey how thick am I, I have the N1 in front of me there is nothing on here about a password. Just a:
Claim No. 7MA11933 Issue Date 5 July 2007 and stamped seal.

Then another stamp with:
Dare posted 5 July 2007
Date Served 7 July 2007
Initials - squiggle

There are three other sheets, the Acknowledgement of Service N9, with just the claim no on it, The admission N9a with the claim no on it and the Defence and Counterclaim N9b with the claim no on it. No where is there a password.
Would this be because its for a lot of money, too much for MCOL. So do I have to fill in one of these forms and post it off.

[Amethyst]

should be the same...but dont worry - yes just fill in the N9 and send it off.

it would only be on MCOL if they filed on MCOL which doesnt sound like they did. just trying to confuse u.

[Sapphire]

All filled in and I've found out Manchester Courts fax no. so am faxing it over and posting it, just to make sure.

What next ?

[Sapphire]

bump !!!!!

What next please ?
If I need to write to Cobbetts what do I need to ask for please ?

[Guest]

Sapphire

File you N9 in order to buy the full 28 days as Amethyst pointed out.

Second, you need to establish whether or not Les owes this money - we are not talking about a small sum here, it is substantial and growing daily.

You must ascertain, back when the loan was taken out;

1. precisely what sort of loan it was,
2. what arrangement was in place for making repayments and how many were made,
3. how the advance was secured,
4. what security, if any, was provided, (see above)
5. who provided the security (company or private individual)

It is clear from the claim that the loan was made to xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Limited, however you must establish what security, if any was provided by either the company or Les - if he gives you a load of flannel about not remembering, then tell him to get his bloody thinking cap on!

It is not going to go away and nothing will be served by attempting to defend a claim that is legitimate. This will be heard, should it get that far, on the multi-track where cost awards can be unlimited and where the loser usually pays.

You will have a much greater chance of dealing with this if you act now - I see no point at this stage in asking Cobbetts for any information relating to this as they are not obliged to furnish you with any yet - however, you could deny the claim in full and suggest that they either supply you with some concrete proof that the money is owed, or withdraw their claim at once.

As the claimant, it will be up to the bank to prove that Les owes the money, he who asserts must prove or at least present compelling evidence for the assertion. Les is not obligated to disprove the claim if that claim is lacking in evidence that would support it - so let them provide it.

As Les is personally named as the Defendant (according to your first post) we must assume that the bank have at least some notion that the money is owed.

Grill him Sapphire, do what it takes to have him tell you exactly what this is about or you could be wasting a lot of time on this only to find out that there is in fact no real prospect of your defence succeeding.

[Sapphire]

I'm grilling him, believe me i'm bloody grilling him like a piece of burnt bar-b-que he will be when i've finished. He's going to sit quietly tonight and really think about it.
All he can remember at the moment is that it was a personal guarantee for a business overdraft.

more to come - hopefully ..............


Cet i'm pm-ing you hun.

[Sapphire]

Just in case Les can't remember any more details, Ame has sent me a template for a CPR Part 18. (remember I have never seen or heard of one of these before, so this is a complete learning curve for me, I have no idea what it does, how it does it or whatever), however at least my sense of humour is still intact.
So here is what I've done so far: would you please take a look and issue correctons/criticisms as needed:

Mr Les xxxxxxxxxxxxx
addy
..........
...........
...........

10th July 2007

Mr Richard Mark Dean Webb (this is the guy that filled in the N1)
Cobbetts LLP
58 Moseley Street
Manchester
M2 3HZ

Dear Sir,

Ref: Claim No xxxxxxxxx
National Westminster Bank PLC v Lxxxxxxxxx
Re: (not sure what to put here) Balance £53,853.21

Further to our previous letters I hereby enclose a request for information under the Civil Procedure Rules Part 18

A copy of this request has been forwarded to the Courts to be added to the case file.

To enable you to comply with my request you have until xx July 2007 to reply, I expect compliance by that date at the latest. (is this long enough to give them and is the wording right ?

Please confirm by return, that you have passed this request on to your clients.

Yours faithfully


Les xxxxxxxxxx.

[Amethyst]

I think on the letter you have to include the date you require the information to be returned by.

PRACTICE DIRECTION – FURTHER INFORMATION - This Practice Direction supplements CPR Part 18

more info

relevant bits are

1.1 Before making an application to the court for an order under Part 18, the party seeking clarification or information (the first party) should first serve on the party from whom it is sought (the second party) a written request for that clarification or information (a Request) stating a date by which the response to the Request should be served. The date must allow the second party a reasonable time to respond.


1.6 (1) A Request (whether made by letter or in a separate document) must –
(a) be headed with the name of the court and the title and number of the claim,
(b) in its heading state that it is a Request made under Part 18, identify the first party and the second party and state the date on which it is made,
(c) set out in a separate numbered paragraph each request for information or clarification,
(d) where a Request relates to a document, identify that document and (if relevant) the paragraph or words to which it relates,
(e) state the date by which the first party expects a response to the Request.



later on in the process you can look at part 5 - have a read so you know what you are doing it for....

[Sapphire]

2nd page

MANCHESTER COUNTY COURT - CLAIM NO: xxxxxxxxxx

National Westminster Bank PLC vs Leslxxxxxxxxxx

10th July 2007

PRELIMINARY REQUEST FOR FURTHER INFORMATION OR CLARIFICATION - Civil Procedure Rules Part 18

1: In your claim you state 'the claimant claims payment of the overdue balance due from the Defendant under a contract dated on or about 31 July 1996 in the sum of £30,000.00 or £53,853.21 not sure which to enter here.

2: Please provide the following particulars in support of your claim:

2.1 In relation to 'the overdue balance'
a) the full statement of the account including interest charged
b) penalty charges applied, and resons for the same
c) and payments made to the account.
d) a copy of the original guarantors contract as outlined in your claim.

2.2 Please provide a full breakdown of the Collection Charge applied to the accounts, the terms of contract under which this was applied to the account.

3: Please provide a true copy of the executed agreement.

4: Copies of correspondence received from and sent to Mr Les xxxxxxxxxxxx regarding this account.

I hope that this is ok.

sapphire

[Sapphire]

Ame I have added a line with 14 days deadline is that ok.

sapphire

[Amethyst]

Is the claim direct from Natwest or from their solicitors ?


14 days is fine but I would put by the xth July 2007 as opposed to 14 days

You also want a copy of the original guarantors contract as outlined in their claim.

you so have to poke him with the soft cushion tonight hun write down everything he knows