cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQUEST

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

Bless you Amethyst. very kind x

gorang, it sounds like i should.

[mystery1]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

The bit in PT's quote means if you have already done this bit and they are still dragging their heels, don't just let it run out, apply to extend the extension, so don't worry on that.

Just picking up on that bit as i've not read all the thread. I don't think PT said that but whether he did or not it's wrong. One extension of up to 28 days and that's it.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...es/part15#15.5


Agreement extending the period for filing a defence

15.5
(1) The defendant and the claimant may agree that the period for filing a defence specified in rule 15.4 shall be extended by up to 28 days.
(2) Where the defendant and the claimant agree to extend the period for filing a defence, the defendant must notify the court in writing.


It simply cannot be done more than once. many debt chasers think they can say "ach we'll just send you stuff in a few years when we can be arsed to look for it but in the meantime we hope you are stewing and once we get our act together you can have 14 days and we don't give a sh1t if you're on a fortnights holiday"

People who ignore court rules should be punished but you've got to help the court do it. It is harder in small claims but still.

M1

Edit :- Now i've read the quote i believe "that" = time for filing a defence and not the extended time for defence if you see what i mean.

[Amethyst]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

Yes xx

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

could somebody explain please, after reading a few other threads with almost the same circumstances, .......(not saying those posts lay out what i am asking below, BUT have many different approaches different to mine as kindly advised on my thread)

Can i not, apply to have this struck out( so they the case is closed for ever more?), the sols have admitted they have no paperwork,(AND they admit CQ are very slow to respond) just a copy of my name and address sent by CQ on my CPR31.14 request, the sols have said they have had NO indication when they may turn up AND they are happy to just wait and wait, then they will contact me again.. (surely one of them CQ or sols must be in possession of the docs to base their claim on???) ,,, i have loads of letters from lloyds the original creditor, where they supplied me the docs i posted in my first thread...... an application form and some modern T&C's.

SO i dont see the point in me asking for an extension to ask for docs i know they dont have, as lloyds have had 4yrs to comply with a CCA request and i let them know they failed to comply as neither docs complied. lloyds went the the 'Financial ombudsman procedure' in their final letters and have their "final response" letter, in which lloyds state very clearly that the CCA IS compliant and the more modern T&C's take into account any new terms (and this is good enough) that will have been added.

I ONLY have a few days left (weekend) to file my defence (25th) and can prove i have exhausted all avenues (to comply with cpr) with the original creditor so what is the point in me chasing a newer one who wasnt even given the non compliant docs and my letter history when they ''supposedly' assigned the debt. the sols, by the time i would, (if you think this avenue is worth following), apply to the court to have in struck out would have had 14 days to supply me with bugger all and proves either the sols or CQ never had them to start a claim against me and have abused court procedure in the first place......... (on the claim form it does NOT state docs to follow, sols admited on phone CQ are having to request them from lloyds)

Im probably missing something here, but i see it as my chance to cut them down now???................ i really dont see why I AM obliged to give them(i know its been said it is in my favour) another 28days to leave me worrying, they bought the debt, without being given all the documentation at the time of assignment quite clearly, i have had bugger all contact from CQ whatsoever, they take me to court without the docs even in sight and now I have to give them more time??????? seems a bit like me giving a murderer time to sharpen his knife before he slits your throat instead of making a dash for it.

Im thinking all this because i have such a 'letter history' with the original creditor requesting these docs CCA etc 4 years ago, if they had come up with new ones since then to sell the debt on to CQ, SURELY i should have also been sent them under my still outstanding CCA request 4 yrs ago, NO?????

If i am wrong, which im sure i must be or one of you guys would have probably recommended me do something like this already, but if i am could someone please explain why in lay terms please. is it because i have sent a cpr31.14 and no docs have arrived so i ''must'' now do the 28 days??

Also if i am nOT to deny the claim (cause of an incorrect acc number) as it is assumed i know of the debt(which i do!) then why do i need to allow another 28 days to wait for docs i already have them!, from lloyds??????? .......... in my mind i should say file my defence now as it seems i am holding more documents than you, and you brought the case against me??

Sorry, i had to ask or this will go round and round in my mind the whole time.


Sarnie

[mystery1]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

The court will not likely strike it out because they failed to disclose and you have not been seen to be reasonable. Just because you "know" won't satisfy a court.

The correct route is to enquire about an extension and give them a few chances to comply so the court sees you had no option but to make an application. You will be penalised in costs if you are too hasty and don't have good reason (in the courts mind, not yours) to apply to the court.

In your particular case you also have an issue that it will no doubt proceed to the small claims track and thus some judges will not give you what you want as part 31 does not apply to small claims. Your case is trackles at the moment and until allocated it remains that way but some judges won't see it that way.

If you have enough information to enter a defence then it was pointless to try 31.14 and you can ignore it and enter a defence and procced accordingly.

M1

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

Thank you M1, that helps explain it a bit better.

The court will not likely strike it out because they failed to disclose and you have not been seen to be reasonable. Just because you "know" won't satisfy a court. understood

The correct route is to enquire about an extension and give them a few chances to comply so the court sees you had no option but to make an application. You will be penalised in costs if you are too hasty and don't have good reason (in the courts mind, not yours) to apply to the court. thats where i was thinking that by the sols saying that CQ have to ask lloyds for the docs, im sure when the do the assignment to comply the purchaser MUST be given all relevant docs and paperwork, by CQ having to ask lloyds would say that didnt happen, therefore its fairly evident that the assignment wasnt done properly and CQ should not have instructed sols to proceed if they had nothing themselves to justify court action and to say the debt is ok to claim, ie not SB etc.

In your particular case you also have an issue that it will no doubt proceed to the small claims track and thus some judges will not give you what you want as part 31 does not apply to small claims. Your case is trackles at the moment and until allocated it remains that way but some judges won't see it that way. oh ok, i see.

If you have enough information to enter a defence then it was pointless to try 31.14 and you can ignore it and enter a defence and procced accordingly. so is this saying that if i have my CCA and newer T&C's i CAN file a defence on monday???

M1

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

is my point regarding the 4yr CCA request of no use to me to say i have waited and not being hasty as ive not had a new one sent to replace the 'application form' i got and CQ dont even have it??........ it all seems to contradict itself which is why i think i am struggling to get my head round some of this.

Just seems daft they can start court action without any justification or Pre action contact, no LBA etc sod all, and then expect to stall and eF about, when i should of received a copy if any newer docs if they found them under my CCA request (is this right,if they found newer ones i should of hand them??) i made 4 yrs ago, from the same people CQ are asking for the same docs...... just seems daft.

Not saying im poo pooing you advise, just trying to get it set in my head...... as im sure you can see where i am coming from with my train of thought/s


again thank you for input and sorry for asking what you probably think are silly questions.


Sarnie

[mystery1]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

S78 non compliance is a defence, or more correctly, a bar to enforcement.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/78

(6)If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—
(a)he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement


Note that enforcement is not starting court action (i disagree myself but the courts have held this and you can only piss with what you have).

M1

[Gorang]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

M1 Beat me to it :tinysmile_aha_t:

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

M1 could you could you explain a few points a bit for me please as this has left me a bit confused............ as your last para about me having enough info to enter a defence......... do you mean with what i have now OR after i have given them a bit more time???

Originally Posted by mystery1
The court will not likely strike it out because they failed to disclose and you have not been seen to be reasonable. Just because you "know" won't satisfy a court. understood

The correct route is to enquire about an extension and give them a few chances to comply so the court sees you had no option but to make an application. You will be penalised in costs if you are too hasty and don't have good reason (in the courts mind, not yours) to apply to the court. thats where i was thinking that by the sols saying that CQ have to ask lloyds for the docs, im sure when the do the assignment to comply the purchaser MUST be given all relevant docs and paperwork, by CQ having to ask lloyds would say that didnt happen, therefore its fairly evident that the assignment wasnt done properly and CQ should not have instructed sols to proceed if they had nothing themselves to justify court action and to say the debt is ok to claim, ie not SB etc.

In your particular case you also have an issue that it will no doubt proceed to the small claims track and thus some judges will not give you what you want as part 31 does not apply to small claims. Your case is trackles at the moment and until allocated it remains that way but some judges won't see it that way. oh ok, i see.

If you have enough information to enter a defence then it was pointless to try 31.14 and you can ignore it and enter a defence and procced accordingly. so is this saying that if i have my CCA and newer T&C's i got from lloyds a few years ago, i CAN file a defence on monday???

M1



Ive had so many kind replies and slightly different views on to go ahead im a little confused now



OR is this quoted from pt2537 a good way to continue, seems to make sense in my case ??? after i take it i have informed the court of our agreed extension using the letter Amythyst so kindly posted ?


There is the option for the Defendant where the Claimant is in-breach of the provisions of CPR rule 31.14 & 31.15 to make an application on an N244 form. Now then, you should exhaust all options before launching an application, it should be last resort not first. Let the creditor have the 7 days he is allowed. On day 8 write to him pointing out the time is slipping and that you require disclosure, ask for an estimate of when the documents will be provided. Don't be frightened to give the creditor a time frame. Say "I require the agreement by 4pm on xxxxxx 2012 or i will have no choice but to make an application to the Court" it will assist if the application is necessary.

[mystery1]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

It depends what you want to do.

They haven't complied with disclosure rules. You know they have failed to comply with s78.

You can apply for disclosure on the basis the claim is currently trackless and they should comply with the rules. In theory it's a no brainer i.e. you do it you win and they are forced to produce disclosure or the claim is struck out. However the claim is destined to end up as a smail claim and judges vary in method, knowledge and ability. However it would be a strange decision for a judge to deny you on the basis of small claims and then punish you with huge costs. It can happen however slght the risk.


Alternatively you can file a defence on based s78 and amend when they disclose under standard disclosure later, if required. As time is short and your time to file a defence is imminent this may be the best bet.

M1

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

Thanks M1.

As time is short and your time to file a defence is imminent this may be the best bet.

Is this to file defence for the s78 only, i take it........... other route is like below

If i go the other route i have the extra 28days the sols have already verbally agreed to,( email court first thing tomorrow) as at best i think all they will come up with should be what i have already, and i would say from the 'CCA as they call it' that i posted on page 1 they should fail anyway, would you agree that the 'online application' document they call the CCA on page 1 doesnt comply with an enforceable CCA? i think it has prescribed terms missing and is not readable in many places inc their address at the bottom.. not mentioning the T&C's.

This i think is my better option as you say i only have till tomorrow to make a defence if i go s78......

Thanks

[sarnie2109]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

Assuming i go the 28day route

Would it be worth while then, when i send my cpr15.5 tomorrow morning to the sols (as at the mo its only verbal) to give them a time scale of say 7days like in PT's quoted paragraph.

If so what happens after the 7 days are up please.

thanks M! your last post really helped me get my head around how this is meant to work now

[mystery1]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

The court may not accept a verbal agreement to extend a deadline for the filing of a defence. It would certainly stop someone just making the fact up !

Your agreement to extend needs to be in before your current deadline is up.

The 7 day deadline you mention has passed. You gave them 7 days to produce the documents as per http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/pro...s/part31#31.15

(c) that party may request a copy of the document and, if he also undertakes to pay reasonable copying costs, the party who disclosed the document must supply him with a copy not more than 7 days after the date on which he received the request.

As time is short and your time to file a defence is imminent this may be the best bet.

Is this to file defence for the s78 only, i take it

Not really as you are adamant you never received a default notice or a notice of assignment so that forms part of your defence too.

If i go the other route i have the extra 28days the sols have already verbally agreed to,( email court first thing tomorrow) as at best i think all they will come up with should be what i have already, and i would say from the 'CCA as they call it' that i posted on page 1 they should fail anyway, would you agree that the 'online application' document they call the CCA on page 1 doesnt comply with an enforceable CCA?

I can't read them so can't really say. If it's not "easily legible" and/or not honest and accurate then it's unenforceable but can be corrected.

You should note it is possible to comply with s78 but not included prescribed terms. They are only obliged to send a true copy of what you signed and only you know what you signed. That would cause them problems but not under s78.

M1

[Gorang]

Re: cca REQUESTED FROM LLOYDS IN 2009 NOTHING AS YET...... NOW COURT PAPERS FROM CAPQ

VERY IMPORTANT SARNIE


I have just read your whole thread again and I am wondering if we have all missed your smoking gun of a defence

Sarnie post 14

the supposed CCA turned up with one letter and then in another letter came the TC's in their words in this letter it says ''my colleague sent you a copy of the application documents (the ones i have posted above) for the credit card account, sorry the copy you received was illegible, in the circumstances i have ordered another copy (never turned up).......... next paragraph.

The application document supplied, forms the credit agreement regulated by the consumer Credit act 1974... we have supplied a copy of the terms and conditions relating to our credit card accounts. Although you have asked for the original terms and conditions for this credit account, we have provided a copy of the up to date TC's as these will include any relevant changes to the terms (????) as notified to our Account holders since the Account was opened.''

He does go on to state on the next page about the ... account was closed april 2007 for debt recovery and transferred to our cust debt recovery. this followed the issue of a default notice sent 12 march 2007 and formal demand on 3 april 2007...... i dont honestly remember receiving anything from them, but if it was 2007 the head was still buried in the sand at that point in time.

Sarnie Post 18

im also thinking that because lloyds have failed to comply with my original S78 request in 2009 and still have not complied by not supplying the original TC's that there cannot be a way forward to proceed ?????

I have been reading through their paper work and they have/had joined this with a loan acc i had with them, quoting both acc no's on one letter.......... he states in one of these doubled up letters, but sent to me as way of a reply to a CCA application i sent , he states that we last made a payment in 2009 on THIS acc, yet the balance of the debt has remained the same ????? since 2007, im wondering if they were putting the £2 payments into the loan account.
IF it works out i havent paid since then it should be SB......... my cpr will demand a statement of account so that should show last payments should it not?

FP post 20

What £2 payments are we talking about? WHO states you last made a payment in 2009? WHEN in 2007 are we talking about? This is very important, because SBd is an absolute defence and, that being the case, you need not worry about anything else. If you make that assertion, it would be up to the claimant to PROVE that you made payments after 2007.

Sarnie I didn't see an answer by you for FP's question above about SBd so I am asking again as this is VERY VERY IMPORTANT

HAS the amount changed at all since Lloyds told you this in writing "account was closed april 2007"

IF the amount claim on the N1 is the exact same as it was when the account was closed in April 07,
then the debt IS statute barred as it is 6yrs and 7months ago since the account was closed
and if the 07 amount is the exact same as the sum claimed for on the N1,
then that PROVES its statute barred
as if any payments were made to the account between times, then the balance would ONLY be able to go DOWN, NOT stay the same

CAN you say for SURE that there is NO payments been made to this account for OVER 6 years

yet the balance of the debt has remained the same ????? since 2007

If you can then have you got anything to prove it??
ie statement from 07 that's showing the amount from then, is the exact same as they are claiming NOW
ie2, the letter from Lloyds stating the account closing balance

IF you have proof that this is the case, then forget about the agreements notices and extensions and use this as your defence, as statute barred is a FULL COMPLETE defence that can't be overturned, not even by a judge

if you need a statute barred defence put together then I'm sure that someone here will be able to help you with it in the morning
Remember you will have until close of play tomorrow (Monday) to submit anything to the court

I hope you get chance to read this post and can PROVE its statute barred BEFORE you submit ANYTHING to the court

fingers crossed for you