*** DISMISSED *** Small claims for stabling fees

[jaguarsuk]

All I can say is WOW

paragraph 16, does this not slightly contradict itself by saying

“has suffered no loss by the defendant terminating the agreement within the agreed terms”

as as there were no agreed terms?

No, so you admitted to her Solicitor you entered into an agreement in the letters before they filed a claim.

All agreements have terms otherwise they can’t be agreements and the only terms were you’d pay for the space and the amount you’d pay.

You terminated the agreement without breaking any of the agreed terms.

Its only a draft draft and you can take it out, it doesn’t make a difference to the point your making if you remove the whole sentence and just leave in

“”Paragraph 7 is admitted, there was no notice period required as part of the agreement and the Defendant was not obliged to give notice.””

[Stopbox]

All I can say is WOW

paragraph 16, does this not slightly contradict itself by saying

“has suffered no loss by the defendant terminating the agreement within the agreed terms”

as as there were no agreed terms?

[jaguarsuk]

Deleted - first draft of defence containing a lot of typos. Typos corrected and reposted in post #57

[jaguarsuk]

Having reviewed your document I'd say 3 is inconsistent with your accounting, as when your horses died you did not reduce in your own accounts and only reduced it in July after the meeting with the Claimant. I would say a judge would side that the agreement was a price for the space irrespective of the number of horses occupying it if this is pointed out by the claimants solicitor.

Also, you can admit 7 as you did leave without notice and there was no requirement for notice.

Other than that I'm on the same page as you, so bear with me while a do a little editing and we'll have a look at a first draft of the Defence for Rob to then cast his eye over.

[Kati]

had to convert to doc xx

[Kati]

Ok, i've sent the letter to the claimant asking for copies of the payment schedule and loan agreement. I have typed up the defense regarding the POC but I don't seem to be able to upload it as its a xsls document? So I will be sending it to Kati to see if she can upload it for me.

I'll see what I can do xx

[Stopbox]

Ok, i've sent the letter to the claimant asking for copies of the payment schedule and loan agreement. I have typed up the defense regarding the POC but I don't seem to be able to upload it as its a xsls document? So I will be sending it to Kati to see if she can upload it for me.

[jaguarsuk]

My question is though, will it get thrown out of court due to the mistake the claimant has made stating on the claim form that it’s for unpaid stabling fees, then on POC that it’s for an outstanding loan agreement. Which she won’t be able to send me any paperwork for at all?

It's unlikely that would get it dismissed, more useful to dent the credibility of the other side and make it look like they don't have their house in order. Chances are they'll be able to explain it away as a typo and as she is represented that a judge would accept that explanation.

It's better not to rely on just one argument and present a full defence as amending it later costs money, so refuting the claim for the fees will still be important.

[Stopbox]

My question is though, will it get thrown out of court due to the mistake the claimant has made stating on the claim form that it’s for unpaid stabling fees, then on POC that it’s for an outstanding loan agreement. Which she won’t be able to send me any paperwork for at all?

[jaguarsuk]

Not sure if the above required a response but to clarify, I wasn't suggesting this was a B2B or B2C agreement. The case law I mentioned are examples of successful harassment claims and it just so happens that they are B2C cases. Its the principles from the judgment that are more fundamental to supporting a harassment claim.

It was more that I just wanted to check I hadn't missed something than relating to the principles of the case, it was me getting my thoughts straight.

I have some wording that I have used previously as a starting point for claims for harassment but I won't post it up yet as the first focus is getting the defence and information right. Then focus can be on the counterclaim and what to include.

I agree and that's why I am reserving my opinions on what the Defendant should be admitting or denying until they have filled in your document. I don't want to lead them with my thoughts.

I'm not so sure that a claim for harassment can be used in that way to invalidate the signed document rather it is to prove that the person did indeed cause harassment and so the remedy for that is compensation.

Undue influence however, is probably the more appropriate argument in that it gives relief to the party who has been pressurised into doing something that he/she would not have ordinarily done. The remedy for undue influence is to set aside any transaction against the wrongdoer.

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on this bit, I posed the question purely as I'd come across 1A while trying to find the wording I quoted of s1(2).

I don't think we need to see any witness statements just yet as that comes further down the line.

Agree, to explain the process to Stopbox you will file your defence and the claimant will have opportunity to reply to it. If they don't a questionnaire will be sent to them and you asking how you wish to proceed. You complete it and if you both wish to mediate then a mediation appointment will be booked where you mediate by telephone. If either party chooses not to mediate or you can't settle at mediation then the claim is transferred to your local court who will set a hearing date. The fees will have to be paid usually a month before the hearing and then Witness Statements with all supporting documents are sent to the court as well as the other party usually 14 days before the hearing. And if it gets that far finally you'll have your day in court... well sort of, it's not like on the tele and usually in chambers, so it's like being in the judges office as opposed to a court room.

There's a long way to go before Witness Statements.

[R0b]

As I understand and Stopbox correct me if I'm wrong, this is a case of two individuals in this claim as opposed to the Claimant being a corporate entity and the Defendant an individual.

Not sure if the above required a response but to clarify, I wasn't suggesting this was a B2B or B2C agreement. The case law I mentioned are examples of successful harassment claims and it just so happens that they are B2C cases. Its the principles from the judgment that are more fundamental to supporting a harassment claim.

I have some wording that I have used previously as a starting point for claims for harassment but I won't post it up yet as the first focus is getting the defence and information right. Then focus can be on the counterclaim and what to include.

The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 may also add strength to the invalidity of the signing of the note when attending the office?

I'm not so sure that a claim for harassment can be used in that way to invalidate the signed document rather it is to prove that the person did indeed cause harassment and so the remedy for that is compensation.

Undue influence however, is probably the more appropriate argument in that it gives relief to the party who has been pressurised into doing something that he/she would not have ordinarily done. The remedy for undue influence is to set aside any transaction against the wrongdoer.

I don't think we need to see any witness statements just yet as that comes further down the line.

[Stopbox]

I can confirm that this issue is between 2 individuals. My witness statements state that she told staff that she had my employers permission to be there. Which we later found out she didn’t (or that my employer lied to one of us) AND I have an email from my employers/boss’s wife stating it was her that gave permission for the claimant to come to my place of work.

to be honest I’m not worried about the money, I just want it all to stop. But if I can, as you say, bruise her ego then that would be sufficient.

as for the note, she threatened both myself and my horses in my office and witness statements say that it looked like she was about to hit me at which point I stood up and raised my voice to be heard over hers and asked her to leave. I’m happy to post the statements but I won’t be able to do that until this afternoon.

[jaguarsuk]

Its actually 33 days from the date of claim form, not service (service of the claim form is 5 days after the date of the form + 14 days to file a defence + a further 14 if you acknowledge the claim).

I would refer back to post #11 and use the template I uploaded before you consider drafting your defence. It will help you when you need to explain whether you admit or deny the allegations.

As for quantifying damages for harassment, cases are few and far between so it might be difficult to grasp what sort of damages you might be entitled to. It is likely to turn on the number of times you were harassed, how the harasser carried out the harassment e.g. in person, over the phone, email etc.

Ferguson v British Gas 2009 is the prime example of a claim for harassment though I am not sure your issues are the same as those set out in that case.

Potter v Price 2004 is another case which confirmed that sinister and alarming emails as well as anonymous phone calls in relation to a commercial debt can amount to harassment.

One thing to consider is that harassment for civil claims is a statutory tort and has been made akin to personal injury type cases in relation to the distress and anxiety. The reason why I mention this is because the small claims track will be the usual track for personal injury claims up to a value of £1,000. Therefore if you claim anything beyond this in terms of harassment, you open yourself up to the possibility of paying legal fees and may outweigh a claim altogether. You should consider limiting any claim for harassment to no more than £1,000 if you want to keep it on the small claims track.

As I understand and Stopbox correct me if I'm wrong, this is a case of two individuals in this claim as opposed to the Claimant being a corporate entity and the Defendant an individual.

The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 may also add strength to the invalidity of the signing of the note when attending the office?

(1A)A person must not pursue a course of conduct —

(a)which involves harassment of two or more persons, and

(b)which he knows or ought to know involves harassment of those persons, and

(c)by which he intends to persuade any person (whether or not one of those mentioned above)—

(i)not to do something that he is entitled or required to do, or

(ii)to do something that he is not under any obligation to do.

You were under no obligation to sign the note, she refused to leave until you did and had been dishonest in getting to your office.

In terms of proving Harassment for a Counterclaim in this instance I believe you'd have to assert that by coming to the Defendants place of work, circumventing the building security by lying that she had permission to attend the Defendants office and then on entering the Defendants office causing an altercation "a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other." <s1(2)>

Additionally whether the Claimant knew or ought to have known her behaviour in messaging you and leaving voicemails along with coming to your office amounted to Harassment wouldn't hurt. The contents of those messages/voicemails might shed light on that.

As Rob says, you really don't want to be going outside the Small Claims track and risking costs burden, if you loose it could be an absolute fortune and really not worth the risk.

I think if you defeat the Claim and win any Counterclaim you will sufficiently bruise the Claimants ego regardless of value.

Based on what you have told us I think I know what you should and shouldn't be admitting, however I'll reserve my opinion until you have completed Rob's document and can share the table with us.

[Stopbox]

Ok, thank you

and ive got the spreadsheet on my computer and working on it

[R0b]

Based on that I would say that it is 28 days from 19 March