*** DISMISSED *** Small claims for stabling fees

[Stopbox]

The only grey area is that the July payment was made from me selling lots of horse stuff, I did not take cash out of the bank, however I have kept details of what I sold c/w picture, who it was sold too and when it was sold.

i presume with the overpayment that you state, you are not working on the fact that according to the claimant I have to pay for 4 weeks notice ie to end of December 2017.

[jaguarsuk]

Hi, the letter is sent to the address on the claim form, if that's the Solicitor then it goes to them.

Properly understanding everything is important to advise, so I have updated the timeline, is this correct?

Jan 2012 agreement
Nov 2016 Payments ceased
Dec 2016 Payment of £2000
July 2017 Payment of £1200 and Payments reduced by half
Sep 2017 Payment of £1000
Dec 2017 Left Stables

Okay, so assuming it's correct that changes everything and you withdrawing the money on or around those dates will be crucial to defeating her claim.

I worked out the payments schedule was this from the dates:

17/12/2016 100 p/w to 11/05/2017
12/05/2017 100 p/w to 06/07/2017
07/07/17 50 p/w to 31/08/2017
01/09/17 50 p/w to 07/12/2017
07/12/2017 7.14 p/d to 09/12/2017

You paid in total £4200 and were due in this time to pay £3914.28 therefore by my reckoning you have overpaid £285.72.


Edited to add: The fact you have kept meticulous records of payments is good, if the payments amounts are withdrawn from the back around those times then that will back up their validity.

[Stopbox]

Here is my record of payments 0942ADF3-A1D5-42D7-88DE-31D80FC2455E.jpegAE684BF1-248D-444F-98CA-2BB0062D38F5.jpeg088EA836-6784-4C39-A208-8621301CFD8F.jpeg

[Stopbox]

The death of the horses was not the claimants fault, it was due to illness and old age. With reference to the counterclaim I have evidence for all of it.

however, all payments made to her were made in cash and I also paid her £2,000 on 17/12/17, I have evidence that I took cash out of my bank but no proof it wasn’t handed to her and this would take my payments up to 11/5/2017. I then had a text from her on 5/7/17 asking me for more money, I replied I would be there on 6/7/17 for a chat. I then took £1200 to her and we sat and have a talk about the fact I had only 2 horses and that I should no longer be paying £400 every 4 weeks but only £200, she agreed and took the money from me and as far as I was concerned she was paid up until 31/8/2017. On 20/9/2017 I then got another text from her asking for money and enquiringly about my health, I texted back that health was still being investigated but also I would be round to see her about the 20/9 with money, I then paid her £1,000 and again I thought this would take me to January 2018. However, at this meeting she then denied having any agreement with about reducing the money, but didn’t do anything about it. At the end of December she requested that I pay all outstanding monies for the 4 horses (even though I have 2) and that I had to pay it by Friday 8th December or else. Hence why I moved off the yard. There is no livery contract in place stating how much notice I give her or who is responsible for what.

i have today requested a letter from my vets to prove I have 2 horses and since when. I’ve also got in touch with the other livery’s husband to see if he can help with a letter stating that the fifth stable was built for his daughters pony, unfortunately the one who could definitely help me died last year.

Ive also got text messages between myself and friends about when I moved onto the yard, and texts to my farrier stating I have 2 horses at the farm.

I will I’ll get the letter you stated typed up today and sent tomorrow, and Just to make sure I understand this letter will be sent to the claimant not the solicitor?

[jaguarsuk]

I have cobbled together a rough timeline:

Jan 2012 agreement
Nov 2016 Payments ceased
July 2017 Payments reduced by half
Dec 2017 Left Stables

In your letters you admit you entered into an agreement, therefore you can't now deny you didn't. However that wasn't a loan agreement they are claiming for, so you might have them on a technicality.

Do you agree you ceased payments in Nov 2016? If not when did they cease?

You suggest that the payment in September 2017 was to pay forward, so what about settling the arrears?

If the timeline I have cobbled together is right by my calculations approx. 35 weeks at full rate (£3500) and then approx. 22 weeks at half rate (£1,100) and you paid £1,000 in September 2017. In actuality you owe £3600, but specific dates of the agreement changing in July might change that slightly.

You have said that the two horses dying was her fault, do you have independent proof of this?

It's good that you have supporting evidence of the Harassment, clearly she knows this will come up hence refuting it in her POC and what she doesn't realise is that you can counter claim for it.

I don't think you'll be able to claim undue influence as when you entered the agreement in 2012 you freely admit you were referred to the claimant by a mutual friend and at that time there was no harassment or other pressure put upon you to agree it.

I note that you inferred a counterclaim in your letters for various items, you would have to prove the loss you incurred for those items and the Claimants liability for them if you wanted to counterclaim for those.

A counterclaim for Harassment with both police crime reference numbers and five witness statements would be strong, so there's potential to reduce further what it owed.

If there is independent (a vet) evidence that the cause of death of your two horses was the fault of the Claimant, then you may be able to make part of a counterclaim about that too.

The over payment you claimed as far as I see it doesn't exist, you paid an amount in September 2017 seemingly whilst in arrears and any reasonable person would deduct that sum from the arrears not apply it to the period from the date of the payment. I think a judge would see it that way too.

If the company whom I assume provide your office facilities compensate your employer for the breach of security as a result of the grievance you filed, she might just find herself on the end of a claim from the facilities provider after trespassing on their private property.

[Kati]

and the last 2:

[Kati]

here's the letters:

[jaguarsuk]

Sorry if you felt I was venting, I thought I was replying to Rob’s questions and was having difficulty with uploading the particulars of claim

No need to apologise, sorry if it came across as if I was having a go and it certainly wasn't meant to sound that way. Being claimed against is personal and understand the anger.

The first thing I notice is that the claimant is claiming for:

The outstanding loan agreement sum of £4700.

That is inconsistent with the rest of the Particulars which talk about this being an outstanding debt for a service and not repayment of a loan which the claimant made to you.

It appears to be a little mistake in typing up the particulars, but they are effectively telling one story and then claiming for something completely different.

You need to send a CPR 31.14 request for a copy of this agreement to the address for service on the claim form, here's a draft for you:

Your name
Your address
Your postcode

Date

Claimants name
Claimants address
Claimants postcode


Dear Sirs,

Claim Number: XXXXXX
Request for documents mentioned in a statement of case under CPR 31.14

On xx/xx/xxxx I received a County Court claim from yourselves of which I have acknowledged receipt indicating my intention to defend in full.

To enable me to file my defence and/or counterclaim, I require inspection of documents you mention in your statement of case ahead of filing my defence on xx/xx/xxxx. The documents I require are:

1. Record of the arrangement
2. loan agreement

In accordance with CPR 31.15(c) I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

You should note that this claim has not yet been allocated to a specific track and the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect. Had your claim not been issued through the County Court Business Centre the Claimant would have been obliged to attach copies of the documentation upon which it relies to the Particulars of Claim.

I, as Defendant, am entitled to see the documents on which the Claimant relies and which you must produce at trial. Disclosure at this stage will enable me to fully plead my case and further the Overriding Objective.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 calendar days of receiving this letter.

If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing and confirm your agreement to an extension of the time allowed for me to file my defence as allowed under CPR 15.5 so I may notify the court.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely
Your Name

The date for filing your defence will be 33 days from the date on the claim form, but if that falls on a weekend or bank holiday it becomes the first working day after the weekend/bank holiday.

You don't have to send this recorded delivery, but do get a proof of posting.

[R0b]

Morning,

I think the starting point is to go through point by point the particulars of claim and consider whether it falls into one of the following categories:

1. You admit that what is being said in the paragraph is true
As a defendant, you want to ensure that you have a very robust defence so you should only admit each paragraph if it is absolutely true. This is because if you admit an allegation it will be binding upon you and it is usually very rare for an admission to be withdrawn once it is made. If the allegation is not clear, inaccurate or incomplete then you should clearly state what is admitted and what is denied or not admitted.

2. You deny the allegation
When you make a denial, the court expects you to provide evidence at court to show why the allegation is not true. In your defence you cannot simply say that the paragraph is denied (known as a bare denial), you must explain why you deny the allegation. You do not need to have conclusive evidence to deny something but it must be credible enough and admissible in court. So for example in your case, if the claimant is misrepresenting the facts then you should deny the allegations and then set out your own version of events of what happened.

3. Non-admission and putting the claimant to proof
If you are unaware of the allegation being made and the allegation might be true but you are not in a position to know if it is true or not, then you can make a non-admission. This requires the claimant to go some effort to prove what it is saying is true, and if the claimant can prove this allegation to the satisfaction of the court, then it will be deemed to be true.

I would suggest that you set everything out in a table so you can use that as a starting point when it comes to your defence. I've attached a word document to assist you which is only a starting point but it should assist you to analyse and get together the evidence you need and identify any gaps which may need to be explained at the hearing, should it go that far.

Based on what you have said so far, there may be a defence of undue influence and so any amount being claimed should be set aside by the court (the set aside of any amount would be a counterclaim), you could also have a counterclaim for harassment and the overpayment of £200 as you suggest. Obviously the more compensation you seek, the higher the fees you have to pay although if you bring a counterclaim attached as part of your defence, you only need to pay a hearing fee - something we can discuss further when you work out what you want to do.

Any questions, let us know.

P.s. did you email Kati with the rest of the letters? Kati

[Stopbox]

i have asked Kati to upload the rest of the letters as I’m having trouble putting them on the site

[Stopbox]

6458909E-1DB1-45F5-928A-E41E3A85BC22.jpeg My letter to claimant asking her to stop the harassment 560D3BC8-1A47-42AB-88F5-9DDB5B52A04B.jpeg , this was done with aid of the CAB, also attached is her solicitors first letter

[Stopbox]

Sorry if you felt I was venting, I thought I was replying to Rob’s questions and was having difficulty with uploading the particulars of claim

[jaguarsuk]

You should post up a copy of the particulars of claim with your personal information redacted - it's difficult to help you without knowing what the claim says.

Whilst you have posted twice since the above you have focused on one thing and haven't added much other information to allow people to help you. It's understandable that you are perhaps angry with a desire to vent, but everyday you post your venting without what we need is another day wasted not helping you and these things have time limits to adhere to.

To reiterate what Rob requested - please post a copy of the claim form you have received along with any other documents (remove all personal information to protect you identity) to allow help to be given.

[Stopbox]

Also in the voicemail she states that ‘she doesn’t want to start coming down to my place of work and making a scene there but she will do all sorts of things and then there’s the people that I know too’

[Stopbox]

I was harassed at work, in full view of all my colleagues and several of them tried to intervene but was stopped by my manager because he is friends with the lady and had just sold a tractor to them. Also he was heard to say as he escorted one of my colleagues out of my office so the harassment could continue that he knew what it was about and that he had given permission for the lady to be here. He later denied this but we have a email from his wife who has nothing to do with work that she gave permission. I do, however, have signed statements from several colleagues regarding what happened, plus 2 crime reference numbers in relation to this (I work in one county and live in another and was advised to make sure I was covered both at work and home in case anything else happened).

As for my horses I have 2 because 2 died. She threatened me in during the harassment and also my horses in that she knew exactly where they were and told me and that she could get to them anytime (my bosses wife had told her where they were). I have a transcript of a voicemail from her stating that she has rung me several times on my mobile but I have no record of this. However, my husband also received phone calls on his mobile and voicemails. And there was a phone call to the house on 19/12. I am trying to attach the particulars of claim plus letters from her solicitor but am having trouble at the moment. Will try to post them up later