please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=gaz2006;272648][QUOTE=davyb;272549]

So why pay?

If you are making a claim of demanding money wihith menaces you need to inform the police, but as i say since the police were present you may have a problem proving it.

************* look i wasnt there so cant answer that i suspect they were pressured they had young kid crying and screaming and just wanted to get away if you were threatened with arrest or pay which option would you take ????? Tell me why ASDA didnt do anything on the occasions they accused them of not paying and wait till they are there again doenst make sense to me regards gaz

I would tell them to arrest me or get out of my way to be honest.
Perhaps they missed them at the check out, who knows, its not relevant anyway

D

[gaz2006]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=davyb;272690][QUOTE=gaz2006;272648][QUOTE=davyb;272549]


I would tell them to arrest me or get out of my way to be honest.
Perhaps they missed them at the check out, who knows, its not relevant anyway

*********** would have thought it was relevant they were told it was twice not once so they missed them at checkout twice and dint do anything seems very strange to me regards Gaz

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

If you feel so strongly you should litigate.

As far as they are concerned, as i am sure they will tell you the matter is closed.They obviously have no intention of pursuing further so why should they supply any information.

If you require redress for a perceived wrong then you sue, simple as that.

In this case i wouldn't because i think it would be impossible to prove your case, but i could be wrong in this , i don't know all the facts.

If you think that your evidence will be enough to convince a court, get a small claims form off, otherwise let it go.

D

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=bluebottle;272579]

Davy, some of us are getting a little weary of your negative posts. Do you have a vested interest in the incident this thread relates to, by any chance? Your posts indicate a lack of understanding of the Criminal Law and, in particular, Criminal Justice Law.

BB
Some of us are getting a little weary with your gung -ho approach to peoples problems, sometimes the answer is just to walk away.

Now you may not agree with my opinion here, but that does not make it negative, it just makes it different than yours.

This forum is strewn with people being advised to fight lost causes when the outcome is obviously going to be to their detriment, i will have no part in it.

I think i am entitled to my honest opinion.

D

[bluebottle]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=davyb;272707]

BB
Some of us are getting a little weary with your gung -ho approach to peoples problems, sometimes the answer is just to walk away.

Now you may not agree with my opinion here, but that does not make it negative, it just makes it different than yours.

This forum is strewn with people being advised to fight lost causes when the outcome is obviously going to be to their detriment, i will have no part in it.

I think i am entitled to my honest opinion.

D

Davy,

When you've seen the way retail security staff behave and the poor understanding of the criminal law they have, you will begin to realise why I am advising the OP's friends to obtain the CCTV footage for scrutiny. If it does, indeed, show them to be in the wrong, fair enough. If, on the other hand, it shows that the security bod at Asda was wrong, then the matter needs to be resolved quickly in order to stop this happening to others.

Sometimes, it is best to walk away and put it down to experience, but sometimes, it is best to at least stand up to bullies.

As for you being entitled to your honest opinion, we are all entitled to express an opinion. If I don't think a person's got a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere, I'll tell them. If there is a case to answer, I'll tell them. It's a case of looking at the circumstances, use experience and knowledge and advise accordingly.

[Guest]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=bluebottle;272848]

Davy,

When you've seen the way retail security staff behave and the poor understanding of the criminal law they have, you will begin to realise why I am advising the OP's friends to obtain the CCTV footage for scrutiny. If it does, indeed, show them to be in the wrong, fair enough.

Apparently there were two police officers present, you would expect them to have some understanding of" criminal law"

Sometimes, it is best to walk away and put it down to experience, but sometimes, it is best to at least stand up to bullies.

If I don't think a person's got a cat in hell's chance of getting anywhere, I'll tell them. If there is a case to answer, I'll tell them. It's a case of looking at the circumstances, use experience and knowledge and advise accordingly.

This is exactly what i am saying

It may well be that they were treated atrociously, i am sure they were, but from what in have read there is nothing that legally can be done. You are just prolonging the agony in my opinion.

Sometimes **** happens , you just have to put it behind you, and there is always Tesco's.

D

[bluebottle]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

[QUOTE=davyb;272947]

It may well be that they were treated atrociously, i am sure they were, but from what in have read there is nothing that legally can be done. You are just prolonging the agony in my opinion.

Sometimes **** happens , you just have to put it behind you, and there is always Tesco's.

D

The OP's friends were not allowed to view the CCTV footage and challenge what the security bod was saying. They have a right to see the evidence Asda are relying on and to challenge it. They also need to challenge the actions of the police officer(s), too.

[Bigboots]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

Wow - a lot of situations on this forum.
I just arrived looking for help with my own problem with Asda, but maybe I can be of help for anyone who runs up against them in future.

This is a rundown on the law when you are stopped leaving a shop for alleged shoplifting.
It doesn't cover everything, but I like to think it's darn close

There are two routes of accusing you:
1. Theft Act (criminal law) and 2. suing you civilly.

Criminal requires a high standard of proof of each of these 'limbs': dishonestly taking property belonging to another with intent to permanaently deprive, ie:
1. dishonestly
2. taking (ie leaving their premises)
3. property belonging to another (ie not your own stuff - I was accused of stealing my own property!)
4. with intent
5. to permanently deprive (so eating it, destroying it, as well as taking it from the premises etc. could also count as theft, but 'borrowing it would not - good luck arguing that though! You could say you hadn't decided to steal it, you were about to declare it or put it back and that might be good enough for court.)

The police's opinion on the situation doesn't count for anything but whather they are willing to arrest you. The security will take their lead from the police, but this doesn't change the legal situation, just the fact on the ground as to whether it will be easy for them to pursue the criminal route.
A police officer requires reasonable suspicion. This threshold is a littlelower than the threshold required to take you to (criminal) court and much lower than the threshold required to find you guilty there.
Though magistrates bend this often, they should be 95% certain of each of those 'limbs' to find you guilty.

This basically means that, unless you were shoplifting and want it over with quickly and have managed to keep the security and manager on your side (so they might let you pay and leave), then you should always say: "Bye bye, I'm leaving now. OK prevent me if you think I'm guilty; OK, call the police if you think I'm guilty; OK take me to court if you think I'm guilty".
After they have decided not to let you go, you have no advantage in trying to 'give' the store staff anything. After the police have arrested you, you have no advantage in talking to the police.

But it is unlikely you will be arrested unless you intended to take something without paying and then did manage to leave the entire building.


Suing civilly does not require any real suspicion. I could sue you today for stealing my car from my drive and I don't even have a car or a drive. All that would happen is I would lose in court. For this reason, a lot of companies make allegations and threats of suing, but they would never actually bother taking them as far as court. The threats may be by letter, or they may be face to face when you are feeling nervous and have been locked up in their little room. Even if you did steal something and have a criminal record for shoplifting, and they decided to sue you civilly, they wouldn't get much more than the cost of the items and the court costs (about £50 on top). But you wouldn't get a criminal record if they won. You wouldn't even have to turn up to court if you didn't have any way of fighting it. And you almost certainly would have a way of fighting it, thought it would be more difficult than fighting a criminal charge. The 'limbs' are more loose, and only need to be proved to a 50% standard. In any case, I believe (only from reading Private Eye, mind - I've not been keeping stats) that these threat letters never go anywhere.

OK, that's what they can try and do to you.
What about what you can try and do to them?
After all, you were embarrassed in your local shop, your child was distressed. You probably ended up feeling pretty cr***y too, right? Can they just do this?

Well it comes down to the civil standard of proof again.
They act as if they have the right to search you, have the right to take you away to a room, etc. But all they have is the power of citizen's arrest. This is a power to arrest you (and wait for the police) IF you have committed a crime. they generally interpret this as 'if they have reasonable suspicion' that you committed a crime, ie the same as if they were a police officer, which they are not.
The thing is, your only redress for them overstepping their powers is to sue them (and win on the standard of proof), which no-one can realistically be bothered to do, unless they are very upset for a long time. however they should (and most shops do) take this into account. However, Asda seem to have bad training on this and they think they are just cops, which unfortunately means you have to push it to the brink before they think about what powers they actually do have.
So : If you CONSENT to a search, or CONSENT to go into a room, then you give away your first right.
You may consent to them "looking in your bag" (think about the wording). This is not the same as consenting to a search. All that means is that you will let them use their eyes to see inside your bag. It doesn't mean they can take it, or rummage through it.
More likely, you will consent by your words or actions without thinking about it. Don't do this! Instead, think about it!
If you don't consent and they stop you from leaving (or if you do consent and then afterwards at any point you are clear with them you want to leave and they stop you), then they are falsely imprisoning you. UNLESS they are effecting a 'de facto' citizens arrest (ie an arrest where they forgot to tell you in words that it is an arrest), which they can only do if they already know (or, as it may be interpereted, have reasonable suspicion) that you have committed a crime. Remember that the crime involves all of those limbs being fulfilled. it's not a court, so the 95% standard doesn't apply here, but they should at least believe on the face of it that all of those limbs are satisfied. If they are do not believe (eg are not sure) that the crime had definitely taken place (or will now take place), then it is not a citizens arrest - there is no middle ground. Unlike with the police, there is no 'detain to investigate', etc. There IS NO MIDDLE GROUND, even temporarily: either you consent, or they have all the requisite belief and are effecting a citizen's arrest, or they are falsely imprisoning you.

If it turns out later (after finding the bottle of vodka at the bottom of your bag) that they then do have grounds for suspecting that specific crime (not a later crime, eg public order), though they didn't when they stopped you leaving, then up til the time of the new circumstances (the vodka) the law is still with you, ie it was false imprisonment up to that point, but realistically you will never be able to show that in court. THIS IS WHAT THEY BANK ON WHEN THEY ACT AS IF THEY ARE POLICE - THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY BE PROVED RIGHT.
This is real dangerous territory for the individuals that work for Asda, since they can be sued jointly and severally along with Asda (you will notice I am mentioning this specific shop here). What's more, if they put you in fear of violence, or physically move you around, jump you, etc, then the security guard himself commits a criminal offence which, after conviction, can genuinely jeopardise his career (an assault conviction is something material when applying for his next job as a security guard!)
What is worse is the recent trend in stores of remotely operating the alarm gates from the CCTV room (or further away), since the security guard puts himself in the line of fire, even though he has no idea what the 'reasonable suspicion' of the CCTV operator setting off the alarm is!
Anyway, I digress! As you will see, the question of 'can they do that?' is not so simple, since you have to be aware as the situation progresses (and tempers may be high) of what your and their current legal position is.
The simple answer is (unless you ARE stealing something, ie with intent and you still had it when you left the shop), do not consent to a search; do not consent to be held - make them break the law or call the police if they want to keep you there. As soon as they do, call the police yourself (unfortunately, the way the police assess who's in the wrong is who calls them first! This is why we have courts.). If there is an explanation, give it to them. Politely. Don't let them get your blood up. Remember everything that is said and who said it and put this down on paper as soon as you leave the shop. And do not admit to, or commit any crimes (ie don't 'front up to them', push or spit, shout in a 'harassing' way. This is easier said than done!

Finally, when you leave (again, unless you really were stealing), spend the £10 on the Data Protection Act SAR(address is on the DPA register). You do have a right to the footage (unless they are using it to prosecute you or somebody else), but they can also delete it (unless it is evidence of a crime).
However, if they are using it to prosecute you (or sue you civilly), then you will be given it long before you go to court, so don't worry about that. If you are being prosecuted or sued, you will also have the right (eventually, but before court) to make them search for all of the footage which affects the case, eg the footage of you putting down the item they say you stole and all of the footage of you at the door.

The DPA is the only power that gives you the automatic right to all the footage which contains you (not just what they think is relevant) and this is an annoyance to them too, so go for it. It also means that you can assess what you can sue them for as early as possible.


I really hope that this helps people (and not just those that have already been treated in this way!). Anybody who shops at Asda, at least, should read this.

[Bigboots]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

Oops, forgot to mention, in case it wasn't clear: not only don't say much to them, but don't give them any money! (except for money for anything of theirs you didn't pay for - that's your choice, but it often helps if the situation appears that you really were trying to take it without paying)

[CleverClogs]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

So why do you dislike Asda?

[Bigboots]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

So why do you dislike Asda?

Is that directed at me?

Asda have many plus points.
But the relevant negative here is that it appears (from my unscientific analysis of a couple of internet forums) that they, unlike other chain supermarkets, train their security staff to overreach their legal powers.

I don't know if the security staff are then indemnified by Asda if they get sued for doing so, but the way that employees of Asda seem to view the company suggests that the shop uses a company 'culture' to push its employer's costs and risks onto its workers - so I would doubt it.

And on a personal note (as to why) - I was recently stopped leaving Asda and treated as a shoplifter (though I wasn't and they didn't have grounds for thinking I was). I don't take that personally, but it's troubling that they would do this. The vast majority of people are less able than me to stand up for their rights in such a situation; posters in this forum have ended up accepting guilt and also, essentially, being blackmailed by Asda and I would not be surprised if many end up getting themselves into trouble being arrested for public order offences for situations which Asda policy has brought about (the staff who stopped me seemed well versed in threatening my arrest for POA offences, but showed less understanding of whether any right existed for them to stop me).

Do you have any information one way on the other on how they compare to other supermarkets?
I suspect this is a training issue and it would be great if you could illuminate us exactly what is in their training.


EDIT: BTW, the rundown above is a guide to your rights if accused of shoplifting at any store. Only some comments are specific to Asda.

[bluebottle]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

The issues you highlight are down to Walmart, an American company that owns Asda.

Your experience with Asda's security staff is not unique and similar incidents have cropped up on LB in the past.

As for them threatening to arrest people for offences under the Public Order Act 1986, I think the only ones who are likely to be arrested for such offences are the security staff. Below is a run-down of offences under the Public Order Act 1986 -

Section 1 - Riot - Must be 12 or more persons involved - Indictable offence, therefore, any person can arrest
Section 2 - Violent Disorder - Must be 3 or more persons involved - Indictable offence, therefore, any person can arrest
Section 3 - Affray - Must be 2 or more persons involved - Indictable offence, therefore, any person can arrest
Section 4 - Fear or Provocation of Violence - Summary offence, but only a constable can arrest
Section 4A - Intentional Alarm, Distress or Harassment - Summary offence, but only a constable can arrest
Section 5 - Harassment, Alarm or Distress - Summary offence, but only a constable can arrest

The only other offence is Common Law Breach of the Peace, but this has conditions attached to it in that any person arresting a person for this offence must release them where there is no likelihood of the Breach of the Peace continuing or recurring.

Detaining someone against their will and without lawful reason or authority is a civil tort and, also, a criminal offence.

[CleverClogs]

Re: please help - accused of shoplifting from asda

So "looking at the security goon in a funny way" wouldn't be arrestable?