Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Bazza,


It is obviously contradicts your original reason for a complaint, that is so, unfortunately. Telling the truth is absolutely necessary, there is no other way. Always the truth!
However it happened in 1990 and I would imagine that you did not have any reason at all to give a wrong information deliberately. Particularly considering the fact that they refer to the telephone conversation as to your so called "request" for PPI, which, according to them, took place in 1999, while the insurance was added in 1990.
The only way to get a proper and fair investigation, I repeat, is to tell the truth and nothing but the truth That is most important.
The problem is, of course, it is not easy to remember events of nearly 25 years ago and honest mistakes may happen. Everybody can understand that, it is not unknown. It is natural to mix up something which took place nearly quarter of a century ago.
I would not think you would distort the facts intentionally. Why to do it when you have a real reason to complain based on real facts and good strong grounds.
It is a much stronger and easier to prove case if PPI was added in 1990 without your knowledge or consent, which is demonstrated by the fact there is no existing information about your request at that time (1990), but some reference to 1999 conversation (not proved by SAR either), then the reason that you were pressured, as you, I believe, mistakenly suggested in your original complaint.
Those facts show that PPI was added automatically without your knowledge in 1990, while the conversation they mention happened much later. Hence, such a discrepancy.
May be you remember some conversation about other card.
May be it was some conversation in 1999 when you were pressured to keep PPI ???
You know better. If you remember anything about it. It was such a long time ago.


Am I correct assuming that originally you mistakenly thought you were pressured to take this policy as you could not have any other possible reason to take it in 1990 and could not even imagine it was added automatically without your request???
Am I correct assuming that you might have mixed it up with some other card taken at the same time?
Am I correct assuming that may be you had some conversation in 1999 and were referring to it in your first complaint letter?
However there is no information about it in your SAR anyway, they talk about some conversation, you remember at some stage being pressured and it got mixed up and confused. Could it be something like that?


Clearly, talking about something which took place in 1990, it is possible to make a genuine mistake, trying to recall it in 2014, 24 years ago.


Knowing how many cards you have approximately from the same period, I imagine you might have mixed up few cases.


I suggest now to email their CEO, enclosing all your complaints and explaining why you could have possibly made this mistake originally, which, though is very unfortunate, however, still does not change the real facts, which you stated as the reasons for your complaint. Your recollections were wrong, that is so.
But your reasons are based on the tangible facts, which are proved, not subject to recollection, right or wrong. Those facts still point to mis-sale.


You should be absolutely honest and along with your complaint explain in your email to the CEO about your mistake and possible reasons for such a mistake, so many years have past, so many cases you complained about etc., you know better.
Just tell the truth and outline again the reasons for your complaint, based on your last letter.


That is what I think so far.


I believe our magnificent Di will have the email address.


Just in case, this link may be useful:


http://www.ceoemail.com/


Best,

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Bazza,


It is obviously contradicts your original reason for a complaint, that is so, unfortunately. Telling the truth is absolutely necessary, there is no other way. Always the truth!
However it happened in 1990 and I would imagine that you did not have any reason at all to give a wrong information deliberately. Particularly considering the fact that they refer to the telephone conversation as to your so called "request" for PPI, which, according to them, took place in 1999, while the insurance was added in 1990.
The only way to get a proper and fair investigation, I repeat, is to tell the truth and nothing but the truth That is most important.
The problem is, of course, it is not easy to remember events of nearly 25 years ago and honest mistakes may happen. Everybody can understand that, it is not unknown. It is natural to mix up something which took place nearly quarter of a century ago.
I would not think you would distort the facts intentionally. Why to do it when you have a real reason to complain based on real facts and good strong grounds.
It is a much stronger and easier to prove case if PPI was added in 1990 without your knowledge or consent, which is demonstrated by the fact there is no existing information about your request at that time (1990), but some reference to 1999 conversation (not proved by SAR either), then the reason that you were pressured, as you, I believe, mistakenly suggested in your original complaint.
Those facts show that PPI was added automatically without your knowledge in 1990, while the conversation they mention happened much later. Hence, such a discrepancy.
May be you remember some conversation about other card.
May be it was some conversation in 1999 when you were pressured to keep PPI ???
You know better. If you remember anything about it. It was such a long time ago.


Am I correct assuming that originally you mistakenly thought you were pressured to take this policy as you could not have any other possible reason to take it in 1990 and could not even imagine it was added automatically without your request???
Am I correct assuming that you might have mixed it up with some other card taken at the same time?
Am I correct assuming that may be you had some conversation in 1999 and were referring to it in your first complaint letter?
However there is no information about it in your SAR anyway, they talk about some conversation, you remember at some stage being pressured and it got mixed up and confused. Could it be something like that?


Clearly, talking about something which took place in 1990, it is possible to make a genuine mistake, trying to recall it in 2014, 24 years ago.


Knowing how many cards you have approximately from the same period, I imagine you might have mixed up few cases.


I suggest now to email their CEO, enclosing all your complaints and explaining why you could have possibly made this mistake originally, which, though is very unfortunate, however, still does not change the real facts, which you stated as the reasons for your complaint. Your recollections were wrong, that is so.
But your reasons are based on the tangible facts, which are proved, not subject to recollection, right or wrong. Those facts still point to mis-sale.


You should be absolutely honest and along with your complaint explain in your email to the CEO about your mistake and possible reasons for such a mistake, so many years have past, so many cases you complained about etc., you know better.
Just tell the truth and outline again the reasons for your complaint, based on your last letter.


That is what I think so far.


I believe our magnificent Di will have the email address.


Just in case, this link may be useful:


http://www.ceoemail.com/


Best,

Thank-you again V for your response.

I totally see what you are saying but what I find very difficult to comprehend with is the fact that they have provided no evidence to the contrary, and commented that the insurance was added in 1999 and not 1990, in which after further investigation on my part (and not the banks) that there were other cards involved in which it was automatically added prior to 1999 ?

The only conversation that I do recall on or around 1999 was upgrading my account and a new credit card being provided, but yet after numerous requests no details have been forthcoming. So how can they pass judgement when the policy was clearly mis-sold on the on-set, in which they have not even acknowledged or passed further comment to.

I am sure you can understand my frustrations, as their recollection of the sale is also contradictury and they have based their rejection on something that I have said.

So any further assistance or advice from anyone that has encountered the same would be very much appreciated.

Cheers

Bazza

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Bazza,
I imagine they did not look at your complaint at all, but used discrepancy in your statements as a reason for rejection. That is why they even did not talk about anything else.
That is why I suggest to email to the CEO a strong letter of complaint and point out very clearly
Your real reasons for a complaint (based on your last letter);
An explanation that it is normal and expected not to remember events which took place 24 years ago and confuse them with similar circumstances, related to other cards etc.
And, the most important, to clearly show that you did NOT have any reason to make anything up as your existing and provable reasons for complaint are stronger.
That proves that you made an HONEST mistake by giving not as strong a reason (wrong recollection of similar circumstances with other cards etc.) as the real fact that it was added automatically in 1990, while they say you requested it in 1999. What could be more!
You have to point out that they completely IGNORED the facts you presented in your letter and, instead of investigating it properly, they decided to blame you for mixing up facts of 24 years ago, while your mistaken recollection did not make your case stronger, therefore you had no hidden agenda, but it was a confusion. It cannot be used as the reason for a rejection. They have to investigate existing facts you presented in your latest letter.
That is why you gave them NEW information, the information you were able to reconstruct after getting SAR.

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Bazza,
I imagine they did not look at your complaint at all, but used discrepancy in your statements as a reason for rejection. That is why they even did not talk about anything else.
That is why I suggest to email to the CEO a strong letter of complaint and point out very clearly
Your real reasons for a complaint (based on your last letter);
An explanation that it is normal and expected not to remember events which took place 24 years ago and confuse them with similar circumstances, related to other cards etc.
And, the most important, to clearly show that you did NOT have any reason to make anything up as your existing and provable reasons for complaint are stronger.
That proves that you made an HONEST mistake by giving not as strong a reason (wrong recollection of similar circumstances with other cards etc.) as the real fact that it was added automatically in 1990, while they say you requested it in 1999. What could be more!
You have to point out that they completely IGNORED the facts you presented in your letter and, instead of investigating it properly, they decided to blame you for mixing up facts of 24 years ago, while your mistaken recollection did not make your case stronger, therefore you had no hidden agenda, but it was a confusion. It cannot be used as the reason for a rejection. They have to investigate existing facts you presented in your latest letter.
That is why you gave them NEW information, the information you were able to reconstruct after getting SAR.

Thank-you Victoria for your time.

I think I will sleep on it as I do not want to vent my anger too much at the moment. I agree in what you say but I find it disgusting that they do not follow guidelines in providing a concise response yet we are held to account when we do not provide enough evidence to substantiate our complaint.

Like you say they seek any opportunity to avoid the issue and I am afraid they have deciphered some comment from my letter to that effect, but no reply as to the reasons that the insurance was not required etc

I know you win some you lose some but in this instance, I feel so peeved with this lot and their computer generated rejection response letters.

Should I keep this complaint as one or should I submit another in respect of the accounts that they have failed to mention since 1990 ?

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

and sorry, did you attach all details to the CEO re the complaint or did you just forward an e-mail quoting the PPI reference ?

Cheers

Bazza

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Bazza, I attached all the information available. My letters were very long, it was no other way in my cases. The danger is, of course, they may not look at it! So, if possibleble, the shorter, the better. It was not possible in my case, too much information to deliver, to many points to make, not to mention, quoting our favourite FCA guidelines
So, I suggest to brake your letter, if it has to be not as short as you'd like, into very clear separate paragraphs.
At first give a short summary about the topics you will talk about, then structure it very clear and easy to read, 1) 2) etc.
At the end another summary, like a conclusion.

Like a barrister speech
To start with:
"You stated... I am going to prove you to be wrong ....
Then , your points 1) 2) etc...
Finally a conclusion:
It shows that.... As you can clearly see.... Therefore I give you 2 more weeks to....

Bazza, that is only if you need to put there a lot of information and cannot make it short.
You have to deliver all the necessary info making your points and also
make it easy to read and understand.
Therefrore it has to be very well structured.
I attached all the relevant information and my previous letters and their replies etc.

I understand your frustration very well. That was what I felt for long 4 months dealing with Santander.
You have to do the best you can. You have a good chance for a desirable result.

Once you have few successes with some companies who follow rules and regulations, it naturally makes you hopeful in general justice and correct approach, but, unfortunately it is not always the case.
Still when we win the satisfaction is great.

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Bazza, I attached all the information available. My letters were very long, it was no other way in my cases. The danger is, of course, they may not look at it! So, if possibleble, the shorter, the better. It was not possible in my case, too much information to deliver, to many points to make, not to mention, quoting our favourite FCA guidelines
So, I suggest to brake your letter, if it has to be not as short as you'd like, into very clear separate paragraphs.
At first give a short summary about the topics you will talk about, then structure it very clear and easy to read, 1) 2) etc.
At the end another summary, like a conclusion.

Like a barrister speech
To start with:
"You stated... I am going to prove you to be wrong ....
Then , your points 1) 2) etc...
Finally a conclusion:
It shows that.... As you can clearly see.... Therefore I give you 2 more weeks to....

Bazza, that is only if you need to put there a lot of information and cannot make it short.
You have to deliver all the necessary info making your points and also
make it easy to read and understand.
Therefrore it has to be very well structured.
I attached all the relevant information and my previous letters and their replies etc.

I understand your frustration very well. That was what I felt for long 4 months dealing with Santander.
You have to do the best you can. You have a good chance for a desirable result.

Once you have few successes with some companies who follow rules and regulations, it naturally makes you hopeful in general justice and correct approach, but, unfortunately it is not always the case.
Still when we win the satisfaction is great.

Thanks Victoria.

So did you copy in your MP on the e-mailed letter to the CEO or did you sent something separate ?

Also should I still respond in writing to the latest letter as well as the above ?

Cheers

Bazza

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Yes, Bazza, I did copy my MP at the same time all my correspondence with the bank, in the same email, not separately.
I personally replied to every letter they sent me. They usually try to wear us out by sending those letters. So I did not leave them without a reply to each one of their letters. May be it was me who wore them out eventually

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

I would not write to the same department any more, just to the CEO, in order to speed it up. I would email to the CEO (of course, you can send a hard copy as well if you want to).
If you email, you can copy to your MP as I did.

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

I would not write to the same department any more, just to the CEO, in order to speed it up. I would email to the CEO (of course, you can send a hard copy as well if you want to).
If you email, you can copy to your MP as I did.

OK V I will do that.

So therefore don't even advise the PPI department that I have forwarded to the CEO ?

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

It is not forbidden
The reason I did not do it, just to "cut to the chase".
After they rejected twice I gave them a diagnosis "useless", so not to waste my time, I went to the CEO.
If you feel like writing to them, of course, do that as well.
You see, I wrote my letter (email) to the CEO department as my complaint not only about mis-sold PPI, but also about the bank complaint department which failed to investigate my original complaint about mis-sale properly.
There were two issues, mis-sold PPI (sale was flawed, in breach of the FCA guidelines) and also a total failure to investigate my case by their complaint department, (the FCA guidelines in no way were applied in their approach to my case), so I brought it to the attention of the CEO office. That is why I did not bother to inform the department which failed to do a proper investigation about it. That very department was a subject of my complaint to the CEO.

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

It is not forbidden
The reason I did not do it, just to "cut to the chase".
After they rejected twice I gave them a diagnosis "useless", so not to waste my time, I went to the CEO.
If you feel like writing to them, of course, do that as well.
You see, I wrote my letter (email) to the CEO department as my complaint not only about mis-sold PPI, but also about the bank complaint department which failed to investigate my original complaint about mis-sale properly.
There were two issues, mis-sold PPI (sale was flawed, in breach of the FCA guidelines) and also a total failure to investigate my case by their complaint department, (the FCA guidelines in no way were applied in their approach to my case), so I brought it to the attention of the CEO office. That is why I did not bother to inform the department which failed to do a proper investigation about it. That very department was a subject of my complaint to the CEO.

Excellent V, music to my ears.

I will do something on similar lines and will keep you posted.

Cheers

Bazza

[L'pool64]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Hi Bazza,

you know that I have the highest regard for DI & Victoria but if I can make an additional suggestion? It is no bother if you do not think it is worth it!
All MPs hold surgeries in their own areas. I was not terribly impressed by mine when he dealt with my case until I made the time and actually went to see him. He was superb, just an absolute gentleman! It was definitely worth my time.

Building on what Victoria has suggested........ Put together your case, in point form. This is something that you will present to your M P and he may choose to use that with just a covering letter, or he/she may use that to build a case for you; but make it easy for him/her. I am sure that you have been at training sessions where you have heard the saying "KISS"......... Keep it simple stupid!!!!!!!! Something like this...............

1 why would I have taken this cover when my employment provided Xxxxxxxxx? Provide proof if you can.

2 refer to the regulatory rules re a non advised sale: must have enough information to make an informed decision before taking out the contract. The paragraph below may not be relevant to your case but amend it to fit your circumstances. This form of questioning puts the onus on them.
" Cancellation of PPI; while I understand that cancellation of the entire contract was possible within a 30 day cooling off period, I was unaware that the PPI could be cancelled at any time. (At least that appears to have been the case from information that I have been able to access on the internet).

So, as per my initial complaint, please explain to me how the information that Nat West provided when I took the PPI out, made these facts clear and, as such, would have put me in a position where I was able to make an informed decision."

Ask your MP to write to the CEO of Nat West. If at all possible do not let them refer the case to the Ombudsman at this stage. I read a lot of crime books and consequently think very poorly of some of the tactics of the large companies!! If we refer our cases to the Ombudsman, it can take at least two years and maybe longer to get a decision. This means that these big companies, even if they lose the case at the Ombudsman, have not had to pay money out to you for quite some time. A bit like the litigation battles that the American companies fight.

Hope this, combined with the help and support of DI & Victoria is of some use.

best regards,

:beagle:Xxxxxxxxx

[Bazza]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

Hi Bazza,

you know that I have the highest regard for DI & Victoria but if I can make an additional suggestion? It is no bother if you do not think it is worth it!
All MPs hold surgeries in their own areas. I was not terribly impressed by mine when he dealt with my case until I made the time and actually went to see him. He was superb, just an absolute gentleman! It was definitely worth my time.

Building on what Victoria has suggested........ Put together your case, in point form. This is something that you will present to your M P and he may choose to use that with just a covering letter, or he/she may use that to build a case for you; but make it easy for him/her. I am sure that you have been at training sessions where you have heard the saying "KISS"......... Keep it simple stupid!!!!!!!! Something like this...............

1 why would I have taken this cover when my employment provided Xxxxxxxxx? Provide proof if you can.

2 refer to the regulatory rules re a non advised sale: must have enough information to make an informed decision before taking out the contract. The paragraph below may not be relevant to your case but amend it to fit your circumstances. This form of questioning puts the onus on them.
" Cancellation of PPI; while I understand that cancellation of the entire contract was possible within a 30 day cooling off period, I was unaware that the PPI could be cancelled at any time. (At least that appears to have been the case from information that I have been able to access on the internet).

So, as per my initial complaint, please explain to me how the information that Nat West provided when I took the PPI out, made these facts clear and, as such, would have put me in a position where I was able to make an informed decision."

Ask your MP to write to the CEO of Nat West. If at all possible do not let them refer the case to the Ombudsman at this stage. I read a lot of crime books and consequently think very poorly of some of the tactics of the large companies!! If we refer our cases to the Ombudsman, it can take at least two years and maybe longer to get a decision. This means that these big companies, even if they lose the case at the Ombudsman, have not had to pay money out to you for quite some time. A bit like the litigation battles that the American companies fight.

Hope this, combined with the help and support of DI & Victoria is of some use.

best regards,

:beagle:Xxxxxxxxx

Thank-you so much L'pool64, the more the merrier lol !

I will take on board what you have said but I did forward copies of my employer benefit details in which I still had and this is the issue as they completely ignored evidence provided with numerous of missing statements etc.

As previously mentioned they totally ignored my further explanation quoting FCA guidelines but only highlighted a statement that I made regarding pressurised sale.

[Victoria27]

Re: Natwest Gold Visa & Mastercard PPI Complaint

My dear L'pool, I am very much in favour of your suggestion.
I am, as you know, a great believer in involving our MPs
As always, we think in the same direction.
Bazza, good luck!