Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Thanks for the additional figures, Daisy.

Yes, indeedy - the Compensatory interest is calculated up to the date of claim settlement, which is why I needed dates as well as amounts. The online calculator you used simply works out an estimate of 40% of the loan amount, and is IMHO a very rough calculation method. PPI refunds can vary wildly, as they are dependent upon a number of variables:
The proportion of PPI to the total loan amount;
The rate(s) of account interest charged;
The date the loan was taken out;
The date the loan was settled, and/or the method of settlement.

In the case of Loan 1 here, the PPI charged was only 6.91% of the total loan amount (ie., 6.9106% of £359.98 is £24.88). I have seen over 40% being charged - and this may have been the case with the earlier Santander loan you mention.

Putting your figures - AND dates - into my spreadsheet, I now get a total claim quantum of £2682.79 as at 31/08/12. This is as near as dammit to Lloyd's offer, and is, IMHO, acceptable.

Loan 2 is therefore probably OK as well.

As an academic exercise, by all means post up the figures for the earlier Santander loan, though.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Hi Bill many thanks for working that out.

Here are the Santander figures, although again I could only find one agreement.

Amout of loan: £6,394.00

Interest: £3,662.00

APR 14.90%

84 monthly instalments of £119.72

PPI: £28.23

Credit Agreement instalment: £119.72

Total monthly repayment: £147.95

Loan started 16th March 1998 and from memory I think this paid off an existing loan

As you say, it will be interesting, hope these figures are enough, they are taken from the copy of the agreement.

I'm still not quite sure why some banks should pay out more than others, it doesn't seem quite fair and I thought there were guidelines, but in that respect I've answered my own question, guidelines are exactly what they are lol.

Look forward to hearing your results on this.

I also guess credit cards are worked out differently, as I received from from that on a much smaller balance but I think I can make sense of that lol

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

If the Santander PPI monthly repayments of £28.23 included apportioned account interest, then you would have paid 84 x £28.23 in PPI, totalling £2371.32. The PPI in this case was a much higher percentage then the 6.9% charged on the Lloyds loan - this time it was approx. 19%. This would explain why you were expecting a higher offer from Lloyds, as you were effectively applying a 19% PPI quantum 'expectation.'
Calculating 8% Comp. Interest to today's date adds a further £2072, making a total claim quantum of approx. £4440. If the claim was settled 6 months ago, this would have been approx. £4350. So - from the figures and dates I have, it appears that Santander's settlement offer may have been a little on the low side - but these are just approximations based on rough figures, and I assume the Santander claim is now fully settled and is water under the bridge.

Yes, credit card PPI is charged - and reclaims calculated - differently to fixed-amount loans. The premium is calculated as a percentage of the monthly balance owing, so it varies continually. Apportioned debited account interest is also added to the accumulated 'rolling' total of PPI being claimed. However, Compensatory Interest (usually at 8% simple) is ONLY added where the 'Notional' balance in any month would have been a credit balance if the PPI had not been sold. So, there is a different spreadsheet for this.

Hope I've helped !!!

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Hi Bill, again thank you for the calculations on Santander - yes I had a feeling it may have been slightly on the low side by maybe a few hundred pounds. However, as there were two loans, and part of the second being used to pay off the first, with the balance to me and I couldn't find the paperwork on the second, I didn't feel I could do very much more about it at the time, so yes water under the bridge I guess, but I was pleasantly surprised to have got anything and it was dealt with very quickly. Hindsight is great isn't it lol, the more we deal with these ppi refunds, the more we learn, well me at least lol.

Anyway, an update on my Lloyds Business Loan. Yesterday I received a telephone call, as promised from the chap who signed my offer letter. He did really try to explain to me how everything was worked out and I did really keep very cool and calm, but alas where maths is concerned, I'm not that good lol. I kind of got what he was talking about though. He did say also that if I accepted, there may a small sum offered for my inconvenience, so I asked what that would be, I did feel it was some kind of blackmail to get me to accept which did make me slightly suspicious. He said they would offer me another sum of £50! However, I could detect slight exasperation in his voice so I still wasn't that happy with his explanation, or should I say my understanding of it, lol. He therefore said he would get someone else to phone me in the hope that the could explain in a little more detail. So after about an hour I received another call from Head of PPI claims, who also attempted a slightly different way of explaining it and he did actually listen to my reasons for not understanding also. The funny part was though that he said they used different computer based calculators that worked things out in a much different way. My reply was to say that surely 8% was 8% whatever way you looked at it, and whilst he acknowledged this, he did explain things in a bit more detail and I was getting to see the light, I thought lol. I also explained to him that I was safeguarding myself and didn't want to accept with being absolutely sure and then finding out 6 months down the line that I would have been entitled to double the amount.

He said that he completely understood but that the calculations would not differ that much but for example if I left the claim another 6/10 months then a bit more interest would be added but the main calculations would remain as they have done them even if it went to the FOS. So by this time, I guess I was pretty much convinced that yes I should accept. What I found highly amusing though was when he kept referring to the 8% as "their apology" lol - to that I said, well if you really want to make an apology up the percentage to 20% and I would feel that really would be an apology lol, also said that let's face it they were doing what they should do asfaras the FOS were concerned lol. I think he got where I was coming from!

Also I said that I found their offer of £50 really not that great as I had spent a great deal of time and effort on sorting this out, especially as they denied my account existed in the first instance (even though I headed my letter BUSINESS LOAN and enclosed the paperwork) and then they insisted I had to start a completely fresh claim! I said I thought more like £500 would be more acceptable! lol I can but try! He then said, the amount wasn't up to him, lol but he would see what he could do. I held on another minute or so and lo and behold I was offered £150.00.

So, at the end of the day I thought it was in my best interests to accept especially as you so kindly helped me out with the calcuations and I am more inclined to believe you and others like you on this forum, rather than just rely on my own calculations which are obviously not good.

Sorry to ramble on a bit lol. Also interesting to note that I have not received an acknowledgement to my letter to Sir Win dated 20th August although I imagine their offer letter of 24th August crossed in the post and perhaps, Sir Win's office just looked on the screen and saw it was being dealt with. However, an acknowledgement at some point I think is in order!

Re: my other half's credit card ppi (which was rejected) and loan ppi letters I wrote to Hosorio and today he got a reply saying he would get an acknowledgement in 10 days. Not much of a reply but at least a reply! So the only difference between his and mine is that his loan was a personal loan and the fact that he was employed as opposed to me who was self employed. All other mis-selling reasons were otherwise pretty much the same as mine and I also quoted the FSA guidelines thanks to all on here again. So, in this respect I guess we watch this space!

I'm so over the moon that I found this forum, it's been an absolute godsend. I shudder to think of the amount of people who get one rejection letter, which seems to be pretty standard and then don't bother to do anything else about it, the banks must be rubbing their sticky little paws as do the claims companies who charge extortionate amounts.

Always your comments/thoughts appreciated

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Well done and congrats on getting a seetlement, Daisy !!! Lloyd's offer seemed fair to me, so I'm glad you accepted it - and well done for the extra bit of 'compo' you got from them, too. I reckon they got off lightly there, as the FOS would probably have told them to pay a few hundred - but you may have had to wait ages for it. I hope my calcs have helped.

Yes, it's a bit of a learning curve when you first start delving into this stuff, and both the lenders and claims management companies often take advantage of this - so I'm glad you found LB useful. Me - I joined several forums 6 years ago to reclaim my bank charges - then learned a load of stuff, and just kinda stuck around. I get a buzz now from folks like yourself just saying 'Thanks for your help,' - and it's an ego-boost, I'll admit. So I've now become a maths geek and a forum junkie - and, yep - I don't get out much !!! We get to make friends here, too. Di, Turboman and myself like to think of ourselves as the PPI 'A-Team' - but we ALL help each other out here.
"I can check out any time I want......but I can never leave !!!"
Let's hope your OH's claim gets a bit more attention now. I like to think that quoting the FSA guidelines shows them that you are not just gonna fold and leave the table like they hope you will. Getting the CEO's office involved must also help, too.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Many thanks Bill, love your comments - anyway I just thought I would give you an update on what's been happening. Have left it a few days as things were happening thick and fast and still are lol.

So......my refund got paid into my account no problem I think it was on Sunday - still not even an acknowledgement from Sir whathisname though, I think this is bad! even though it has been dealt with!

Re: my other half's loans and credit card - you may recall I wrote to Antonio the CEO - so, last Wednesday a call came from Lloyds asking to speak to my other half. Unfortunately he didn't get the guy's name but whoever it was wanted to ask a couple of questions re: his credit card. My other half told him politely to put any queries he had in writing and he would be happy to comment.

On the Thursday morning, my other half's mobile phone went "bing" as they do lol to inform him a sum of money had been paid into his account! On the Friday morning, same thing, another sum of money had been paid into his account! On checking his statement on line it appeared that these sums referred to the loan ppi refunds. Very nice too we thought, they were quite substantial amounts! Well, would you believe yet again I think on the Monday yet another amount hits his bank. When he went on line the reference was however Loan Direct, we thought it was the credit card refund ppi although it said Loan Direct (he has never had a loan with anyone called Loans Direct). A few days later he received a letter stating the amounts refunded, well the first two anyway which referred to the loans and this letter tied up to the first two refunds. Now, unbelievably yet another sum hit his bank, again a letter confirmed this was to do with the loan. We are still unsure what the 3rd sum was for assuming it was the credit card ppi refund.

Now just to liven things up a little more after all this had been paid in, he received a letter in response to ours of the 18th August (the one which I used the FSA guidelines) saying that his credit card ppi would not be upheld.
Then this morning, another identical letter has arrived re: the credit card.

I should point out that the letter I wrote to Antonio the CEO was 28th August after which the telephone call came and the money started plopping into the account. Still baffled as to the credit card thing though.

So what do think my knowledgeable friends?

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

I would like to think that - although Win looks more like a dead Loss with regard to courtesy, perhaps "Oh No" António has redressed the balance and returned to "Life in the Fast Lane" as Mr. Del Monté !!!

I think you need to be able to positively identify each of these bank inpayments ASAP. Hopefully, this is the credit card settlement, but obviously you can't drop the claim unless and until you are able to identify the amounts AND evaluate the settlement offers. You are entitled under FSA rules to an explanation of how the offer has been calculated. You will probably get this eventually, but it wouldn't hurt to ask for it. At the very least, it is important to be able to identify bank inpayments, as they could be bank errors, and may or may not be taxable.

So - my thoughts are - lets just be passive and ask polite questions at the moment. So far, you have been told - twice - that the credit card claim is not being upheld. I would be inclined to politely ask for their clear reasons for this determination, and on what evidence it was based. That way, you have kept up the pressure if you still need to. And, as I said ask for a clear explanation of what the other inpayments were, and how they were calculated.

[brummie]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Hi Daisy

Although my cases have been with another lender it seems the 8 weeks response time is generic, as their systems simply cannot cope with the amount of requests going through at the moment. One thing i found with my claims is that if you phone the department enough times, and escalate it past the initial barrier of the "how can i help?" , you may get to somebody that will listen. In my cases i found that requesting a 24hr call-back from a team manager did get a response, at times less than the quoted. The other thing i found was that these offices do have dedicated fax numbers that can be picked up on very quickly. As, again a different bank, provided me with a "faxination number". I used this by going into a branch of my bank and getting a member of staff to fax my documents through to the number after date-stamping and signing them as being a bank representative. Worth a try to speed things up for you. I have followed a similar path to you with making noise. It seems to have worked for me as well! well done in getting back what is yours......

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Hi Bill & Brummie, appreciate your comments. Well I thought I would give you a quick update. After re reading the loan letter, it stated that we would get a full statement within 28 days. So, ok this arrived yesterday clearly outlining what the refunds were for and yes, all the money that my other half had paid in was indeed related to the Loan(s). Therefore this just now leaves the matter of his rejected credit card ppi to be sorted out. In this respect there are two identical letters, one dated the 7th September 2012 and the other dated 11th September 2012. I shall now copy these and send yet another letter to Mr. Horta-Osorio. It simply beggars belief that they have paid out on the loan and yet not on the credit card! Again, there are no specific reasons in the rejection letters as to why they will not cough up - unbelievable. Also I never did receive even a courtesy response to my letter to Sir Win! All your comments and thoughts greatly appreciated as ever.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Ok so, three letters went off regarding the above yesterday, one to Osorio, one to the writer of the two identical letters and one to the person who acknowledged on behalf of Osorio the first time. I will keep you updated as always and thank you again for all your invaluable help. I now have a major issue with Nationwide which I will put under the Nationwide thread and hope for your further help here also.

[DAISYC3CJS]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Hi folks - another update on the above for you - I think I must be losing my touch! This is the reply received this morning in response to mine re: credit card rejection for other half (if you remember they paid out on the loan!) Anyway as follows:

"Please accept my most sincere apologies for sending two identical letters within a matter of days of each other. As you are no doubt aware, we are currently experiencing an unprecedented increase in the volume of PPI complaints although we have expanded ou resources to deal with this, bla bla !

Now with regard to that para above, I noticed in the Daily Mail the other day an article on Lloyds and others stating that they had almost run out of funds for PPI because of the volume of people complaining. So, it's not our fault, it's theirs in the first instance for ripping us all off!.

Anyway the letter continues.....

In respect of viewing the PPI mis sale, our Review Team has fully investigated the issues you have raised and I am sorry but unless there is no further evidence or additional points of concern which you would like to present, then we are unable to consider your complaint any further.

If you remain unhappy, bla boa (then the bit about the FOS).

So yet, again, as you can see there is absolutely no clear reason why this claim has been rejected nor was there in the other letters?


The following is what I have written previously

As I have already stated in my letter of 27th July 2012 I do not agree with your decision not to uphold my claim and would say as follows:

On page 2 of your letter dated 19th July 2012 you state under the heading Conclusion:“In light of my findings, I feel that our adviser acted fairly and reasonably throughout this sale” etc.
I would suggest that unless you have an actual transcript of recording of the matter it is unfair for you to produce pure speculation and conjecture upon on what might or might not have happened in a conversation that you were not a party to, and this is quite frankly rather insulting.

To clarify further please note the following, again already advised to you:

I was led to believe the insurance was compulsory and it was certainly never at any time explained that it was optional.
I was pressurised into purchasing the said insurance, again, as already advised to you.
I was not asked if I had alternative insurance/employer cover to cover repayments.
I was certainly never provided with full information as to what the insurance would/would not cover.
It was not explained that by adding the insurance premium this would also accrue interest.
It was definately not in my best interests to take out this policy and would not have done so had I not been pressured into doing so.
Please also note the following:
Also it is generally accepted that PPI has been widely mis-sold by lenders over the years. So much so, that in August 2010 the FSA produce Policy Statement PS 10/2 entitled “The assessment and redress of Payment Protection Insurance complaints”. Contained within this is the Dispute Resolution Handbook specifically dealing with the handling of complaints about mis-sold PPI. Therefore, where a complaint of mis-selling of PPI is made, then unless the lender can show otherwise, the balance of probability is that the PPI was mis-sold as it is in this case.I do not consider that my complaint has been assessed in accordance with the FSA’S DISPUTE resolution rules, and I request that you now urgently look at my complaint with particular reference to the following rules from P 10/12:-
DISP APP 3.2.2 The firm should seek to establish the true substance of the complaint, rather than taking a narrow interpretation of the issues raised, and should not focus solely on the specific expression of the complaint. This is likely to require an approach to complaint handling that seeks to clarify the nature of the complaint.DISP APP 3.3.1 Where a complaint is made, the firm should assess the complaint fairly, giving appropriate weight and balanced consideration to all available evidence, including what the complainant says and other information about the sale that the firm identifies. The firm is not expected automatically to assume that there has been a breach or failing.DISP APP 3.3.2 The firm should not rely solely on the detail within the wording of a policy’s terms and conditions to reject what a complainant recalls was said during the sale.DISP APP 3.3.3 The firm should recognise that oral evidence may be sufficient evidence and not dismiss evidence from the complainant solely because it is not supported by documentary proof. The firm should take account of a complainant’s limited ability fully to articulate his complaint or to explain his actions or decisions made at the time of the sale.DISP APP 3.3.4 Where the complainant’s account of events conflicts with the firm’s own records or leaves doubt, the firm should assess the reliability of the complainant’s account fairly and in good faith. The firm should make all reasonable efforts (including by contact with the complainant where necessary) to clarify ambiguous issues or conflicts of evidence before making any finding against the complainant.DISP APP 3.3.5 The firm should not reject a complainant’s account of events solely on the basis that the complainant signed documentation relevant to the purchase of the policy.DISP APP 3.3.6 The firm should not reject a complaint because the complainant failed to exercise the right to cancel the policy.
DISP APP.3.3.9 In determining a particular complaint, the firm should (unless there are reasons not to because of the quality and plausibility of the respective evidence) give more weight to any specific evidence of what happened during the sale (including any relevant documentation and oral testimony) than to the general evidence of selling practices at the time (such as training, instructions or sales scripts or relevant audit or compliance reports on those practices).
DISP APP 3.3.12 (3) whether, from a reasonable customer's perspective, the documentation provided to the complainant was sufficiently clear, concise and presented fairly (for example, was the documentation in plain and intelligible language?);
DISP APP 3.7.2 Where the firm concludes that the complainant would not have bought the payment protection he bought, and the firm is not using the alternative approach to redress (set out in DISP App 3.7.7 E to 3.7.15 E) or other appropriate redress (see DISP App 3.8), the firm should as far as practicable, put the complainant in the position he would have been if he had not bought any payment protection contract.DISP APP 3.9.4 The firm should make any offer of redress to the complainant in a fair and balanced way. In particular, the firm should explain clearly to the complainant the basis for the redress offered including how any compensation is calculated and, where relevant, the rescheduling of the loa, and the consequences of accepting the offer of redress.I do hope you will see from this that I am serious about this complaint, and I trust you will now deal with it properly and fairly. I am sure you will not need reminding that the FOS or whichever Legal Representative I decide to use, will take into account your conduct in dealing with my complaint, should I be forced to refer this to them. I sincerely hope we can avoid the time and the expense of having to do so and since this case Should reimbursement not be forthcoming then I will pursue the matter as I see fit.I therefore look forward to hearing from you with reimbursement of all monies due to me, together with interest and charges without further delay.In closing I would point out that I have been a customer of Lloyds for many years and expect my case to be dealt with promptly and professionally. I would also ask that if you have any queries on the above that for the avoidance of doubt, these be put in writing. As you state in your letter you will consider additional information which I have provided herein, again I reiterate, if you fail to adhere to the guidelines and continue to reject my genuine claim, I will take further legal action as I see fit, although I do hope this will not be necessary. Please also confirm this matter will be looked at once again.Yours faithfully,

So my friends, I feel a bit stuck at to what to hit them with next. They have all the information yet are still continuing to be a pain! Also, they paid out on the loan ppi previously!

So again, please may I ask for your urgent input on this ?

Look forward to getting your thoughts xx

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

FWIW, I am helping a friend with their LTSB PPI claim. They were sold PPI on a loan, and on a credit card - both of which were taken out at exactly the same time and place, and sold by the same person. LTSB have upheld the loan PPI but not the credit card PPI. Despite asking them how they can conclude that - in the very same sales process - PPI was only mis-sold on one product. They have not replied.

I'm not sure if writing to the CEO is going to help, so it looks like it's going to the FOS. Brummie said in your other thread that LTSB are almost out of funds for PPI reclaims. If that is the case, then it might explain why the banks are just telling us to go to the FOS, as it buys them time before the profits are affected - and therefore keeps their bonuses safe for a while longer. This will explain the apparent inaction by the CEO as well, I guess.

[Sapphire]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

We've been successful in claiming back the PPI on my husbands Lloyds loan, yet they have denied the PPI on his credit card, both of which were sold to him and signed for on the same day. We appealed and was told to basically sod off, so I've sent the complaint to the FOS, if you want I can dig out the letters tomorrow from Lloyds and copy them here for you, just give me a shout.

[di30]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

It was the same with our loans and credit cards ppi.
Where it was more or less straight forward with the loans ppi but not the credit cards.

I recall on pointing out that it did not make sense to uphold on loan ppi but not credit ppi, yet the same reasons applied.

They come back and said, the fact that it still covered life cover, hospitalisation and job solutions, being a homemaker did not excuse me from making a claim on those.
So I got back and told them, it was unfair to pay for a policy to me that did not FULLY cover me, despite them confirming what I would have been covered for. I told them being a homemaker, I did not require job solutions, and paying full ppi for little cover was just not on.
And yes..............they finally upheld the complaint(s)

[Bill-K]

Re: Lloyds ppi business loan mis selling whatever next !

Blimey - this seems to be a trend, then, doesn't it ? This could be a very useful thread, guys...