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Latest Update on PPI Judicial Review - NO APPEAL - get your claims in......

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  • EXC
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
    I think the grounds have been discussed at length throughout this thread since the hearings and really the judgment is in very easy to understand plain english that the best way to get up to date on whats happened is to read it. I'm sure EXC will put his nose in and rip the judgment apart for everyone later lol.

    Sorry me dear - been away for a bit but better late than never I spose.

    The judgment is the very best of what we could have hoped for- a categorical win on all 3 grounds.

    As Tom pointed out, Justice Ousley, rather than simply refusing permission for Judicial Review (which could have been easily achieved without a hearing or even a judgment by simply ruling that their were insufficient grounds for the case to be heard), in having the case heard and comprehensively dismissing the BBA’s claim in stone, it leaves the banks with not just their claim to re-sell but a high court judgment to overturn. Any appeal to the Court of Appeal will be fought not on the basis of proving their case but disproving the view of the court - a more difficult task.

    On the issue of the claim against the FOS being nearly 2 years out of time the judge ruled that even if he had accepted the BBA’s claim against them he wouldn’t have back-dated it to the date that the online resource was first published:

    ’I would not have refused relief on the grounds of delay if I had concluded that the FOS was applying and continuing to apply a legally erroneous construction of the rules since that ongoing error would have needed correction for the future as Mr Malek accepted. I would not have granted any relief which affected its past decisions, requiring it to carry out a review of past findings.’’

    The judgment takes the form of 3 separate chapters that deal with the 3 grounds for the claim:

    1) The Actionability or otherwise of the Principles
    2) Principles augmenting or replacing Rules
    3) The FSA’s decision to use Root Cause Analysis in favour of s404.

    The BBA’s original claim included a fourth ground - Common Failings - which was dropped by the time the case made it to the hearing. This was arguably what the BBA claimed was their strongest ground and the one on which they most relied to accuse the FSA of imposing retrospective rule changes. The BBA had argued that the Common Failings which appeared in the open letter section of the Policy Statement ‘’superceded the existing rules‘’. But, embarrassingly, shortly after the BBA filed their claim the FSA wrote to them saying that they had completely mistaken the common failings for new rules as opposed to simply examples of breaches of existing rules. It beggars belief that the BBA could make such a fundamental error and this was not lost on Justice Ousley who remarked in the judgment that:

    ‘’After the commencement of these proceedings, the FSA made a statement saying that it feared that the Open Letter was being misinterpreted. This was seen as something of a climb down by the BBA’’.


    Ground 1) Actionability of Principles


    This ground challenged the FSA’s and FOS’s use of the Principles - the breaching alone of which cannot be used by a private individual in the courts to claim financial redress. The BBA argued that if the court doesn’t recognise Principles as giving rise to a legal liability then the FSA & FOS shouldn’t have any legal right to either.

    But Justice Ousley thought differently and concluded that although Parliament indeed prevented the use of the Principles being relied on in a private action in a court of law, there is nothing in any legislation that precludes their use by either the FSA or FOS:

    ‘’I do not find the Claimant's submissions persuasive, preferring instead those of the FSA and FOS. The statutory provision being construed is s150. S150(1) deals with contraventions of rules by making them actionable as breaches of statutory duty. "Actionable" means giving rise to a cause of action in a court of law. S150(2) removes that actionability. S150(2) does nothing else. "Actionable" in s150(1) simply does not mean "capable of giving rise to obligations or compensation". So s150 does not apply to the Principles. It does not alter their function in any other way. It leaves intact any other function or effect which a non-actionable rule might have. The clear words of the section are wholly inapt to prevent rules which are not actionable giving rise to obligations as between firms and customers.’’

    ‘’The words which would have to be imported into the section to give effect to Lord Pannick's submissions are not there by necessary implication either. If the Ombudsman can take the Principles into account in construing other rules but not as free standing sources of obligations, (even where using them in that way did not fall foul of BBA's second main submission that they cannot apply where specific rules have been made), an exclusion of unclear effect yet of some legal sophistication would be required. It is clearly not possible let alone necessary to imply such words.’’


    ‘’Indeed, it is my view that it would be a breach of statutory duty for the Ombudsman to reach a view on a case without taking the Principles into account.......they [the principles] are of the essence of what is fair and reasonable..............whether the Principles had been formulated or not, and whether they could or could not be considered, the FOS would be bound to consider such essential points as whether the information given to a customer was clear, fair and not misleading, putting him in a position to make an informed choice, and whether the policy was a suitable one to be recommended for this particular individual. I accept that point. It is in reality unanswerable.’’

    ‘’Second, there is some sense in such a limitation. One major purpose of the s404 scheme is to require firms to examine cases whether there has been a complaint or not, and if the failure has caused loss, they have to make redress to the consumers. The consumer may have made no complaint at all. They may complain only when they hear of the consumer redress scheme. The limitation to legal liability limits the liability of the firms in a situation when they are likely to be paying compensation to a number of people who did not or otherwise would not have complained. There is one class of consumer who could lose out, and that is the person whose complaint would fail under the s404 scheme but would succeed under the Ombudsman scheme as ordinarily applied. That is a form of trade-off for the consumer in general.’’



    Ground 2) Principles augmenting rules


    This ground of the BBA’s case was an ‘occupied field test’. The theory being that the rules in ICOB and ICOBS exclusively were the only rules that should govern the selling of insurance and that there was no room for additional rules (Principles) to supplement them.

    In general Justice Ousley ruled that the Principles were not an addition to the existing rules but an ‘’amplification’’ or ‘’restatement’’ of them. Although he did conclude that there were some instances where the principles were additional to the existing rules but that there was good reason for them being so.

    To illustrate this he used some really interesting examples given in the FSA’s witness statement - which we never got to see in the court documentation we obtained:

    ’Ms Sinclair gave illustrations in her Witness Statement of the regulatory gap which the BBA's contention would open up. There is no specific ICOB rule which prohibits the selling of a PPI policy to someone who can never claim under it, even where the seller knows that to be the case. Such conduct would be covered by Principles 1, 3 and 6, but not if the BBA argument were correct since there were specific rules governing the sale of PPI policies.

    There is no specific ICOB rule which prevents the non-advised sale of a PPI policy where the cost of the premium plus interest payable, when added to the loan, exceeds any amount which could ever be paid out under the policy. Yet that would engage Principles 1 and 6. There is no ICOB rule which prohibits, on a non-advised sale, the sale of a single premium PPI policy with a refund provision which is not proportionate to the duration of the policy where the seller knows that it is likely that the loan to which the policy was related would be refinanced shortly after the policy was taken out. This would be a breach of the Principles as explained in common failing 15. She accepted that all such conduct might, on particular facts, involve breaches of specific rules in ICOB.

    The first example was used by Mr Brindle to test the true position of the BBA: was it saying that this could be dealt with by the application of the Principles, or that the application of the Principles had been exhausted by the specific ICOB rules? If the former, then the application of the Principles was accepted by the BBA and its point was limited to a debate, which it was agreed was not fruitfully for resolution by this court, as to which factual situations gave rise in practice to the application of conflicting or exhaustive specific provisions.’’


    So in effect what he is saying is that the Principles passed the occupied field test by virtue of them occupying parts of the field that ICOB and ICOBS didn‘t. Neat huh?

    ’The unhelpful concept of the specific rules "occupying the field" is inapt to express the true position. The Principles "occupy the field"; they stand over the specific rules. It is the general performing its role as the overarching requirement which cannot be displaced by compliance with specific rules if the overarching requirement is breached. The Principles are the overarching framework for regulation. The overarching or underlying Principles are simply being applied where the rules do not cover the point.’’


    Ground 3) The s404 scheme


    This ground was another occupied field test. The BBA attacked the requirement for banks to conduct a Root Cause Analysis in the Policy Statement which would mean them having to pro-actively review past PPI sales and offer redress where appropriate even in cases where no complaint had been made. The BBA argued that the FSA should instead use the more formal s404 scheme - for which it was designed - because it offered the banks ‘’certain protections’’. I’d always wondered what exactly these ‘protections’ were and in his judgment Justice Ousley concluded that because of the time-consuming and cumbersome nature of setting up an s404 scheme, the ’’protections’’ amounted to nothing more than providing them with a stalling tactic:

    ‘’Mr Fordham put considerable weight on what he described as the protections for the industry in the need for the Treasury to make the scheme on certain bases, and for Parliament to approve it. I am not sure that those procedures are only protections for firms as opposed to means of oversight of the FSA. Be that as it may, there were different protections in the new section but the important point was that there were protections which showed that measures should not be devised to achieve the same result as a scheme would achieve, unless formulated and processed as a statutory scheme. The FSA did not want to follow the scheme route in part because of what it saw as the cumbersome procedures. Those cumbersome procedures were what Mr Fordham regarded as procedural protections. I do not see that the nature of the measures in the Policy Statement, costly though they will be, and destructive of a number of businesses, can be seen as evading procedural protections which firms were intended by Parliament to enjoy.’’

    ‘’Mr Fordham contended that s404 exclusively occupied the field
    Although it is a necessary condition for the making of a scheme that the Treasury be satisfied of widespread misselling and loss by private persons upon a report to it by the FSA, the existence of circumstances which would warrant a report by the FSA and the Treasury being satisfied of those two requirements, is not by itself sufficient to deprive the FSA of all power to act in any other way to deal with misselling of PPI. It would be absurd if the regulatory powers diminished in range and scope the more serious the circumstances in which they were needed’’

    ‘’I do not think that it is useful to ask and answer the question of what field is occupied by s404, and then ask whether the changes in the Policy Statement occupy it. That rather distracts from and misstates the issue of statutory construction. The question is whether or not the provision for a scheme in s404 carries with it the necessary implication that what the FSA has set out in the Policy Statement is excluded from the FSA's powers as regulator. It is certainly not excluded by any express words. A specific provision is capable of carrying an implied exclusion of other general or other specific powers, but I do not consider that s404 implicitly excludes what the FSA has done, even though it would have been possible for a scheme to have been set up to achieve much or rather more of the same end, and part of the reason why it was not was the cumbersome nature of the remedy, and the fact that it would not apply to breaches of the Principles…… I have already said that the existence of circumstances in which a scheme could successfully be promoted is not of itself a basis for the exclusion of other remedies.’’

    Leave a comment:


  • cappo
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by pompeyfaith View Post
    http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/c...sion/index.htm

    http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...6/rp06-044.pdf

    http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1220.htm

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/c...rts/part52.htm

    Ok guys we are going around in swings and roundabouts here so I have posted this information to see what grounds they have and what the likelyhood of an appeal being granted will be.

    Personally I believe there grounds would have to be very strong going by the Judgment indeed his decision was not rushed though he took his time in making that decision and it lost on all 3 counts.

    Lets not associated this with the bank charges case as it is nothing like it and this case would stand stronger in any court of appeal and/or supreme court.

    I still have masses of faith that this will go our way to the end so lets all be strong.

    Oh and do not believe anything the Times and/or Sunday Times says or any other paper for that matter as they all print what they believe to be true and just creates more confusion draw your infomation from relyable places.

    Regards

    nice post p.f the truth is none of us really know i don,t think, well i know the banks have no honour and wouid do it just to avoid the issue of paying out but sooner or later they are going to have to.but surely there is a set procedure here of appeal rules if they got that thoroughly slaughtered and i,ve not checked the judgement yet,surely there,s no grounds for appeal,but i think we all in our hearts know what will happen but as the saying goes whats undone is uncertain.
    Last edited by cappo; 25th April 2011, 18:49:PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • pompeyfaith
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/c...sion/index.htm

    http://www.parliament.uk/documents/c...6/rp06-044.pdf

    http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1220.htm

    http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/c...rts/part52.htm

    Ok guys we are going around in swings and roundabouts here so I have posted this information to see what grounds they have and what the likelyhood of an appeal being granted will be.

    Personally I believe there grounds would have to be very strong going by the Judgment indeed his decision was not rushed though he took his time in making that decision and it lost on all 3 counts.

    Lets not associated this with the bank charges case as it is nothing like it and this case would stand stronger in any court of appeal and/or supreme court.

    I still have masses of faith that this will go our way to the end so lets all be strong.

    Oh and do not believe anything the Times and/or Sunday Times says or any other paper for that matter as they all print what they believe to be true and just creates more confusion draw your infomation from relyable places.

    Regards
    Last edited by pompeyfaith; 25th April 2011, 10:34:AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Angry Cat
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by MBD23 View Post
    according to the Sunday Times could still be 2 years to go, 21 days to appeal , court of appeal could take till xmas and supreme court could then take another year:tinysmile_aha_t:
    "Customers face two-year wait for insurance compensation, writes James Charles:

    ...The BBA has 21 days to seek permission to appeal against last week's verdict but if it is successful it may not be until Christmas before a verdict is reached in the Court of Appeal. If the Banks lose again, the case could be heard in the Supreme Court, which could take another year."

    Leave a comment:


  • SoapyBubbles
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by MBD23 View Post
    according to the Sunday Times could still be 2 years to go, 21 days to appeal , court of appeal could take till xmas and supreme court could then take another year:tinysmile_aha_t:


    If these are the upcoming time scales we could be looking at should an appeal go ahead then so be it. The joys of living in a democratic and civilised country, eh? Much as I have absolutely no love for the banks, I am however very grateful to live in a country where there is law and order which can be upheld and subsequently challenged through the courts of the land.

    Much as it would please everyone if the banks just done the honourable thing and admitted defeat and got on with the refunds, I think we all know it's not going to happen. They are entitled to appeal so unless they find some morals we are most probably in for a bit of a longer wait.

    Most of our frustration and anger is because of the banks however as Martin Lewis said "They either play the game within the rules or they don't play the game at all".

    The banks cannot in any way shape or form have the luxury of the appeal process whilst blatantly defying their regulator during the appeal.

    The banks have no right whatsoever to keep complaints on hold during any appeal. It has not been sanctioned by the FSA.

    So as much as my anger and frustration is with the banks, the FSA also has to take some of the blame.

    There is no ifs, buts or maybes. The FSA has to show strength to the consumer. Now more than ever before. They have to be taking strong and direct action against the banks not just telling the consumer they can take their complaints to FOS. Which is now totally inundated with PPI cases and as a result you will have a very long wait before you get a decision.

    The FSA telling consumers they can take their complaints to the FOS just isn't good enough.

    Leave a comment:


  • cappo
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by MBD23 View Post
    according to the Sunday Times could still be 2 years to go, 21 days to appeal , court of appeal could take till xmas and supreme court could then take another year:tinysmile_aha_t:


    there fools then and shouid,nt be in business, think of all the money in extra interest they wouid have to pay , now had a very small tesco card come in £125.00 was the cost of the ppi ,it cost them another £60.00 in interest on top. That wouid be what wouid bankrupt the banks not the basic cost of the ppi another 2 years they wouid have to be pretty sure of themselves as bill says an appeal won,t be allowed and in an ideal world this wouid probably happen but we don,t live in a fair world and since when do banks worry about the "little people"

    Leave a comment:


  • leclerc
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by Bill-K View Post
    Leave to appeal has to be granted first, though, dunnit ? Who - in their right mind - would grant that ?
    I think I gave the grounds earlier on in this thread and to be honest the fact that it is an important issue is enough for an appeal. I think AC and myself both agree on this one that an appeal will be granted.
    I apologise. Some barsteward will. It's another world, up there, innit ?

    But I ain't giving up.

    Don't you guys, either.
    See above. The appeal is going to happen and will be granted.

    Leave a comment:


  • di30
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Morning folks

    Nothing surprises me, they will try to drag it out for as long as possible, when the shoe is on the other foot when they have issues its another matter, they think they are a cut above, just like what the media said in one of the links posted here yesterday!

    Leave a comment:


  • charitynjw
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Time for a letter, methinks!

    "Disgusted of Scotland" would be good lol

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill-K
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Leave to appeal has to be granted first, though, dunnit ? Who - in their right mind - would grant that ?

    I apologise. Some barsteward will. It's another world, up there, innit ?

    But I ain't giving up.

    Don't you guys, either.

    Leave a comment:


  • MBD23
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    according to the Sunday Times could still be 2 years to go, 21 days to appeal , court of appeal could take till xmas and supreme court could then take another year:tinysmile_aha_t:

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by debtisbad View Post
    When I attempted to claim back my PPI on an account with Egg, they sent the usual refusal letters. Since I insisted that they had mis sold the insurance, they eventually sent a sound file to me of the "sales conversation".

    What a joke. I said I was in Belgium and worked abroad most of the year and the sales person said that she would put the insurance through immediately to give me instant cover. Anybody knows that PPI does not cover people working abroad.

    Not only that, but the sound file needed a lot of technical know-how to open, as they sent a pin number as well, meaning that many none-technical people would give in.

    I had to write to Egg yet again and they eventually paid.

    What a bunch of gangsters they are.
    Tell me why
    I don’t like 'fry' days
    Tell me why
    I don’t like 'fry' days
    Tell me why
    I don’t like 'fry' days
    I wanna shoo-oo-woo-woo-woo-oot the whole bank down
    ------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
    Originally posted by Bill-K View Post
    You seem just a little bit cross there, DS. Ah well, it's Easter innit ? If you can't crack a few eggs then, when can you ?
    I 'shell' overcome them Bill
    Last edited by The Debt Star; 25th April 2011, 00:04:AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

    Leave a comment:


  • di30
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    What the court decision on PPI means for you

    24 April 2011


    Millions of borrowers who were mis-sold insurance on loans or credit cards are closer to receiving compensation after the courts last week rejected a challenge by the British Bankers' Association (BBA).





    The verdict on payment protection insurance (PPi) is being hailed as a victory over the banks, although it will not necessarily result in payouts being made quickly. Financial Mail explains what it means to you:


    What did the courts decide?
    The banks had called for this judicial review, arguing that new complaint procedures issued by the Financial services Authority (FsA) last year were wrong. The regulator wants the new rules to apply to past sales too.

    The banks also challenged the right of the Financial ombudsman service to use FSA 'principles' - general statements about the way firms should behave - in judging such cases.
    But Mr Justice Ouseley found that the FSA and ombudsman were entitled to hold banks to the tough standards to assess claims.




    What does this mean for customers?
    It opens the way for up to three million customers to get a refund on insurance premiums that they have paid for mis-sold PPi, plus interest.
    Peter Vicary-Smith, chief executive of consumer group Which?, says: 'This is a huge victory for consumers.'
    Not only will the banks have to pay out to complainants, they must also re-examine PPI sales since 2005 and assess them against the new standards, even if a consumer has not complained. The FSA estimates that compensation could total £4.5bn.
    So far more than 1.5m successful claims have been made over PPI mis-selling, with payouts averaging £2,750, and 19 firms have been fined by the regulator over PPI sales.



    How quickly will things move?
    That depends on whether the banks decide to appeal against the verdict. First, they must seek leave to appeal and have until May 10 to do that.
    A judge will then decide if there are grounds for an appeal. If granted, the process could drag on for months. But if the BBA throws in the towel, claims could move quickly.
    Adam Phillips, chairman of the Financial Services Consumer Panel, says: 'it would be disappointing if this marked the beginning of a long legal dispute. It is time for the banks to stop hiding behind lawyers and finally give consumers the redress they deserve.'


    Why might I have a case?
    The courts have no problem with payment protection insurance itself. It can sometimes help cover essential loan repayments at a time of crisis, for example, if you cannot work after an accident.
    But in many cases, the way the cover was sold has been wrong. High sales commissions helped fuel a culture where borrowers were pushed into taking out PPI.
    Borrowers may not have needed the cover, for example if they already had protection for illness or accidents via work sick pay, or they may not have been able to claim for unemployment because they were self-employed. In many cases, consumers were not given basic information about the insurance. And some borrowers may not even have realised PPI was bundled along with their loan.




    What should I do if I think I have a claim?

    Contact the organisation that sold you the insurance. This will typically be the bank that arranged your loan or provides your credit card.
    If it rejects your claim or does not reach a conclusion within eight weeks, the next step is to involve the ombudsman. Call 0300 123 9123 or visit the financial ombudsman site.


    What about claims already in the system?

    Many of these have been put on hold by lenders, pending the outcome of the judicial review. And banks say they are entitled to continue to sit on these until the legal process is completely finished. But the regulator disagrees.
    It said last week that there was no blanket exemption on processing complaints. Some cases will be so clear-cut that regardless of what the judicial review says, a firm will still be in the wrong and have to pay appropriate compensation.
    Others fall outside the scope of the review. The FSA warned that firms that do not deal with complaints promptly could face action and further fines.


    Can I take a stalled case to the Financial Ombudsman Service?
    Yes. Even if a lender has decided not to process your complaint, you can still get the ombudsman involved, which may decide that the bank is wrong to stall the complaint and make a ruling anyway.




    Last edited by Tools; 22nd November 2013, 02:00:AM.

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  • di30
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    And who's been keeping the main of banks afloat?

    And of course being bailed out?

    My 2 sisters who used to work for a bank are just glad to be from there, and have far better jobs and are much happier.

    Leave a comment:


  • cappo
    replied
    Re: Latest updates on PPI Judicial Review and claims on hold

    Originally posted by pompeyfaith View Post
    This states what I believe we have all been saying for a long time, that the banks are not above the law.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/money/s...y-2274024.html


    they think they are though p.f

    Leave a comment:

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