Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

[dogtired]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

mine was similar jax, the one to Cabot I had paid very small amounts to but when I challenged it they refered me back to BOS! eventually!
Then in July last year actually said in writing it was irretrivable yet BOS paid them the best part of the £900 refund.
The Sainsbury one I had been in an agreed payment plan and provided them with income and expenditure, I put it into dispute and from Jan to June last year continued to pay a small amount, they knew that a PPI claim was going through yet still defaulted it, this during assignment but letters from the three DCA involved that July, the FOS had trouble getting them to respond and I then got the offer one day and the refund two days later, no chance to accept or reject, the offer letter was unclear but the letter with the cheque stated " in settlement"

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Di, does your thread , entitled 'refunds' include non PPI refunds too ? That is like my case where I'm claiming unfair interest charges, late payment fees and over limit fees ? In fact the OC has agreed the refund, as you know. All that remains is the 'method' by which the OC intends to refund these amounts to me.

At present the OC claims they have " an option to buy back part of this debt from the DCA, and as such this allows us to pay off part of the balance ". This is despite the assignment being a legal or absolute assignment.

The OC's argument is that with me paying only a reduced sum at the time then I didn't actually pay the interest and fees that were incorrectly applied, thus a cash refund wouldn't be appropriate (although they haven't quite said this).

However, as we all know, when you read how payments are applied to a credit card debt, that payments are applied a) first against the amount you owe for charges and then b) against cash advances and purchases ... So in fact everything I have paid (albeit not very much) was applied to the charges, so I have in fact paid for some of the interest and fees wrongly charged to the account.

One might argue that at least that element could be refunded as a cash refund, and the balance via the OC buying back part of the debt from the DCA..?

Hi Jax, yes of course it includes other financial products, so not a problem at all. My friend is dealing with an account package as well as PPI, another reason of why I am looking into this for him, so it's not just ppi.

[jax50]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Di, does your thread , entitled 'refunds' include non PPI refunds too ? That is like my case where I'm claiming unfair interest charges, late payment fees and over limit fees ? In fact the OC has agreed the refund, as you know. All that remains is the 'method' by which the OC intends to refund these amounts to me.

At present the OC claims they have " an option to buy back part of this debt from the DCA, and as such this allows us to pay off part of the balance ". This is despite the assignment being a legal or absolute assignment.

The OC's argument is that with me paying only a reduced sum at the time then I didn't actually pay the interest and fees that were incorrectly applied, thus a cash refund wouldn't be appropriate (although they haven't quite said this).

However, as we all know, when you read how payments are applied to a credit card debt, that payments are applied a) first against the amount you owe for charges and then b) against cash advances and purchases ... So in fact everything I have paid (albeit not very much) was applied to the charges, so I have in fact paid for some of the interest and fees wrongly charged to the account.

One might argue that at least that element could be refunded as a cash refund, and the balance via the OC buying back part of the debt from the DCA..?

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

You may also find this useful, as it's updated information too.

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/con...lection_g1.pdf

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

OFT (Office of Fair Trading) Debt Collection Agencies....

http://www.oft.gov.uk/about-the-oft/...ebt-collection

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Hey that's ok Bill not a problem lol.

Debt Collections Agencies, your rights included etc....Debt collectors and Debt Collections Agencies.

http://www.ukfa.info/debt_collectors.6.html#Debt Collectors

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

It can seem complex - and I confess that I'm no good at explaining stuff. If you go through it enough times, then hopefully, it all eventually clicks into place. Turboman has made a significant attempt at explaining the mechanics of PPI redress calculations here:

http://www.legalbeagles.info/forums/...I-Calculations

BUT - let's not hi-jack Di's original thread purpose, which is (I think) to establish exactly who becomes responsible for PPI redress when a debt is 're-assigned.' I think the calculations should follow from this discussion, and not lead it.

[dogtired]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Will have to re read and digest all the above! Bill has helped me on the thread about Sainsburys, for which many thanks!
Its still confusing as the two BOS were at the time with DCA and handled very differently.
I will have to go through both documents but do not remember seeing an assignment with the BOS one but the one from Cabot was in the same envelope which makes me think, again, if this was "genuine"Very informative as usual.
They both only sent very bad copys of application form.
Sainsburys was 1999 origanally the BS 1998. This passed first to Blair Oliver in 2002 then to Cabot in 2003, despite me keeping to agreed payments.
They seem on reading other threads one of the worst for doing this.

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

OK Bill, thank you, and that is all pretty logical and straightforward. One last question about that then. Say my repayments inc. ppi were £100 pcm. Would you expect the paperwork of the agreement to specify somewhere that £92.00 was towards the lump sum loaned and £8.00 was towards funding the 'loan' for the ppi?

If not, and this is much more your territory than mine, and I might regret asking this , my £100 contains interest. The ppi element must therefore be having interest charged on it at the same rate as the loan. When a reclaim takes place, I assume it is simply a case of taking the ppi total, adding the total interest payable on it to get a ppi+interest figure, then reclaiming that + further interest at 8%.

I have a strong feeling the answer is it doesn't work like that. If not, how does it work?

The loan of which you speak is a 'SPI' loan (Example 3 in my post), I believe. Yes, the agreement almost invariably shows both elements of the loan (Cash Advance and PPI) - and this is a key document in calculating PPI redress on such loans. If we have a loan of £9,200 to which a PPI premium of £800 has been added, then we have a total loan 'Principal' sum of £10,000. This is from where the 'Apportionment Factor' is derived, and it is 8% (ie., 800 / 10000). Now, in the agreement, we will see that loan interest is added to this £10,000, and this may even vary throughout the life of the loan - BUT - no matter how the interest rate changes, the 'Apportionment facter' remains the same.

So - if the initial monthly repayments work out at £100, then 8% of those will be directly attributable to PPI (ie., £8). If those repayments eventually rose to £150 pm (due to interest rate rises), then the same 8% would apply, and the PPI element would rise to £12. So - we don't need to calculate the loan interest separately this way. "Simples."

And then, as you have surmised, we add 8% to each 'apportioned' monthly PPI repayment. You named that tune in one, Grasshopper. It DOES work like that !!! Enjoy your cornflakes.

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

You did ask lol! I'm off to bed,but if you feel able to answer post 54, that would make great reading over breakfast!

It's really rather interesting when two or three separate areas suddenly come together like this isn't it. I think I'll be doing a bit of reading around as well - good stuff.

[Bill-K]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

I'm not keeping up very well here, so I'm missing posts.

I'm afraid this is where my total ignorance of ppi stops me being able to answer this. If you can explain to me in simple terms how ppi works, I may be able to have a stab at answering the question.

Is ppi and integral part of a loan or a separate insurance policy?
It is ALWAYS a separate insurance policy - but the way in which it is paid for varies. I can think of three ways:
1. It is taken out as an entirely separate 'stand alone' policy - a bit like the old Endowment Assurance policies that were an integral part of Endowment Mortgages years ago. They were inextricably linked to the mortgage - but were kept entirely separate from them. Mortgage PPI often follows this 'model.' A monthly premium is paid to the insurer, and this is based on the monthly repayment amount at the time.
2. It is taken out on a credit card (or other revolving credit), and is a monthly premium based on the balance owing. This premium is charged to the card account each month, and is therefore included in the monthly repayments. In this case, a portion of the monthly account interest can be reclaimed, as it is directly attributable to the PPI. This is calculated on the cumulative total of PPI (and apportioned interest) - and NOT just on each separate monthly repayment.
3. It is charged as a single 'upfront' premium (often referred to as 'SPI.') This type of PPI is usually applied to fixed-amount loans, where the PPI premium is actually loaned to the borrower alongside the actual 'cash advance' loan. Although it is usually shown on the same agreement, it is treated as a separate loan for CCA purposes (as discursed in FSA Policy Statement PS 10/12). In this case, the PPI 'cover' often lasts for no more than a few years (typically 2-5), but the cost of it is spread out over the entire loan term (typically 10-30 years). In this case, account interest is charged throughout the loan period, and is refundable.
Are all payments clearly divided into two elements - one for the loan, one for the ppi?
No. As partially explained above, the PPI is entirely separate in scenarios 1 & 2. In scenario 3 ('SPI') - it is actually a single 'front-loaded' premium paid by the lender to the insurer. The lender then incorporates this into the total loan, and it becomes an integral part of the loan, with loan repayments covering BOTH the 'cash advance' loan repayments and the PPI loan repayments in one single monthly repayment amount. Turboman's 'apportionment' method separates these two out, when we need to calculate this.
Is the ppi always with the same company as the loan, or does a lender act as an agent for another company?
The PPI is with a separate insurer, and the lender collects the premium(s) and passes them to the insurer. Some sub-prime lenders appear to have 'milked' this idea, though, by charging a monthly amount which LOOKS like insurance - but in fact there is NO insurer. In effect, the lender 'takes responsibility' for what an insurer might have covered, and simply pockets the money themselves. IMO, this is literally a 'Protection Racket' !!!
When a loan is sold on, why is a ppi claim to the original creditor?
Hopefully, my previous post might help explain this - but it is purely my own take on this, and subject to trashing.

I think I know some of the answers,but would like to be sure - there may be more questiions then lol!

Go for it, mate. The envelope needs pushing, and I can think of no better guy to do it !!!

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Re the DPA, it might save a lot of time if before posting questions here, you read Schedules One and Two (and Three for some things not yet been discussed here). The reason I say this is that for things like ppi reclaiming, it makes it clear that they can process your data without express consent, so exampleslike that are clearly covered. Read it - it's not hard going considering it's legislation!

Here's a link again:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...9/introduction

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

OK Bill, thank you, and that is all pretty logical and straightforward. One last question about that then. Say my repayments inc. ppi were £100 pcm. Would you expect the paperwork of the agreement to specify somewhere that £92.00 was towards the lump sum loaned and £8.00 was towards funding the 'loan' for the ppi?

If not, and this is much more your territory than mine, and I might regret asking this , my £100 contains interest. The ppi element must therefore be having interest charged on it at the same rate as the loan. When a reclaim takes place, I assume it is simply a case of taking the ppi total, adding the total interest payable on it to get a ppi+interest figure, then reclaiming that + further interest at 8%.

I have a strong feeling the answer is it doesn't work like that. If not, how does it work?

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Ooh thank you Bill and Labman.
Bill also thank you for writing the info in full details via Labman questions of PPI, my head is tired now, so time for me to get some shut eye.

Look forward to coming back to this again tomorrow, and yes I agree Bill that is a fab post by Labman, will be re-reading again tomorrow morning with a clearer head.

Thanks again guys.

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/...9/introduction

Have a read - it's good stuff!