Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

[jax50]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

I wonder if when a notification of assigment is sent to the debtor by the OC, which says we have sold all rights, title and interest to a DCA...and then admits several years later that in fact they have an agreement which allows them to buy back the account in full or in part from the DCA, is this just an outright mistruth then or is it designed to mislead the debtor ?

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

In simple terms an Equitable Assignment is the assignment of the Equity in the debt, so it can be assigned to a DCA for collection, but the DCA cannot take any action off its own back, it must ALWAYS refer back to the OC. They can and do threaten, but they can't actually really do anything without going back to the OC.

An Assignment in Absolute, or Absolute Assignment is where the debt is sold in its entirety to a third party (the DCA). The DCA buys it for say 16p in the pound (so for every £1 owing they pay 16p), sometimes as low as 5p in the pound. They then purchase the rights, responsibilities and duties of the OC, so effectively they now become the OC - they can take any action the OC could have taken without referring back to them.

When the OC sells it via an Absolute Assignment, they offset it in their accounts, so it doesn't actually cost them anything.

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

As it's only recently that I've had an interest on this, so am still researching.

The difference between Equitable Assignment.........

Equitable assignment

An assignment (www.practicallaw.com/A35863) which does not fulfil the statutory criteria for a legal assignment (www.practicallaw.com/A36342). An equitable assignment may be made in one of two ways:

• The assignor can inform the assignee that he transfers a right or rights to him.
  
• The assignor can instruct the other party or parties to the agreement to discharge their obligation to the assignee instead of the assignor.

Only the benefit of an agreement may be assigned. There is no requirement for written notice to be given or received. The only significant difference between a legal assignment and an equitable assignment is that an equitable assignee often cannot bring an action in its own name against the third party contractor, but must fall back on the rules governing equitable assignments and join the assignor as party to the action.


Assignment (absolute).

An assignment under which the contract holder transfers all ownership rights to the assignee and has no further rights under the contract. This is considered a "transfer or ownership." If a contract holder absolutely assigns a contract without receiving any payment in exchange, it is considered a gift. For example, parents who purchase a contract insuring their minor child often transfer ownership to the child when he/she reaches the age of majority. This is generally accomplished by means of an absolute assignment. By contrast, if financial compensation is received, the absolute assignment is considered to be sale of the contract. For example, a company that owns a contract insuring a key person may sell the contract to the employee in exchange for the contract’s cash value when the employee leaves the company. This sale/transfer of ownership is also accomplished by means of an absolute assignment.

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

I think you'll find it was only an Equitable Assignment.

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

It is unclear Di, the Bank of Scotland one had been with Cabot for some time and when I put it in dispute, they returned my CCA fee and referred me back to the OC.
I do not believe that its was "assignees" properly as all I got at the beginning was a "hello" letter from Cabot and in the same envelope a what i now know to be dodgy "we have past your debt to Cabot" They over a period of five months failed to provide any thing like "proof" that they "owned" the remaining balance.
I got a letter from them in July, last year, saying that they now considered in "irretrievable four weeks letter i got the "successful" decision from FOS but all BOS sent me was £80, I assume Cabot got the remainder as I did not get any acknowledgement from them until April this year.
Sainsbury (same group) also took a while as at first they declined the claim, I had been on a payment plan with them and they told me it had defaulted, however this happened during the PPI dispute and they would not listen to me or put the account on hold until it was relived.
The FOS had to really harass them and I eventually got an offer letter on and a cheque for the full amount on the following Monday.
On the same Friday I go a "Hello" letter from Robinson Way, rang to object that it was now resolved, a week later got another "hello" from Blair Oliver, via the "customer relations" wrote back that time asking for "proof" that this was still owing.
They ignored this and we played letter tennis to them and customer relations for several months, that is when I di a CCA and they paid it into the disputed account.
Along with this CCA was yet another poor copy of my original application form and a "reconstituted" copy of the terms and conditions, however this had the wrong name on it.
me being a generous person informed them of this, all I got back was "we gave looked into this and we are right as your address is right and the remaining balance is still due"
Another week later got another letter from Robinson Way, wrote back with "prove it"
Then i got yet another letter from Wescott again they have failed to come up with anything, and it is still on hold.
Back with the FOS and I have also raised a complaint with the ICO.
Its about a year since i paid anything for this .
You really could not make it up!

You've had a difficult time with these then?

So do you mean Cabot referred it back to the OC?
I have read on some posts that banks have purchased back the debt and sold it on again, it doesn't seem right though does it!

When you were originally told that the debt was sold on, was the letter like anything like the one I posted of my family friend's letter, as posted in my above post?

[dogtired]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

It is unclear Di, the Bank of Scotland one had been with Cabot for some time and when I put it in dispute, they returned my CCA fee and referred me back to the OC.
I do not believe that its was "assignees" properly as all I got at the beginning was a "hello" letter from Cabot and in the same envelope a what i now know to be dodgy "we have past your debt to Cabot" They over a period of five months failed to provide any thing like "proof" that they "owned" the remaining balance.
I got a letter from them in July, last year, saying that they now considered in "irretrievable four weeks letter i got the "successful" decision from FOS but all BOS sent me was £80, I assume Cabot got the remainder as I did not get any acknowledgement from them until April this year.
Sainsbury (same group) also took a while as at first they declined the claim, I had been on a payment plan with them and they told me it had defaulted, however this happened during the PPI dispute and they would not listen to me or put the account on hold until it was relived.
The FOS had to really harass them and I eventually got an offer letter on and a cheque for the full amount on the following Monday.
On the same Friday I go a "Hello" letter from Robinson Way, rang to object that it was now resolved, a week later got another "hello" from Blair Oliver, via the "customer relations" wrote back that time asking for "proof" that this was still owing.
They ignored this and we played letter tennis to them and customer relations for several months, that is when I di a CCA and they paid it into the disputed account.
Along with this CCA was yet another poor copy of my original application form and a "reconstituted" copy of the terms and conditions, however this had the wrong name on it.
me being a generous person informed them of this, all I got back was "we gave looked into this and we are right as your address is right and the remaining balance is still due"
Another week later got another letter from Robinson Way, wrote back with "prove it"
Then i got yet another letter from Wescott again they have failed to come up with anything, and it is still on hold.
Back with the FOS and I have also raised a complaint with the ICO.
Its about a year since i paid anything for this .
You really could not make it up!

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Di,
I had two via the FOS last year.
Both with HBOS

A bank of Scotland Card, "sold" to Cabot who had already said it was "irretrievable, the refund went to them and I got £80
A Sainsbury card which was passed to Blair Oliver Scott during the PPI dispute.
With that I got the letter one day and the refund, in full to days later, "In settlement"
I still got letters from Blair Oliver and when I requested a CCA they paid the fee onto the alleged remaining debt.
This is still ongoing and up to now has been with four DCAs,
A SDAR had the wrong name on a copy of terms and conditions and there were date discrepancies.

So the FOS agreed as well that it should go to the DCA then?
Was the debt fully assigned to the DCA, or was the Original creditor) just using them (without fully selling the debt to them) to collect the payments/refund?

Good luck with this, please keep us posted.

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

It's a shame we can't force them to reveal the price for which they sold / bought the debt in the assignment isn't it. It would make life easier!

Yes it certainly would make life a lot easier, it would be very interesting to know lol

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Hi DT,

Did you challenge BoS at all to ask under what legislation they now retained the right to pass on YOUR money to a third party? Technically the debt is nothing to do with them anymore, and I cannot see how they can legally say they can give away what is yours to offset a debt owned by someone else. They wouldn't give it to British Gas to pay off your gas bill would they. I'm intrigued by this aspect of the thread - not to mention sharing your data still with a third party who no longer has anything to do with the debt owed.

As for your SDAR, they don't have to have any name on the T&C's, the T&C's jsut have to be the same as the ones in place when you took out the card. Is the agreement a recon or a true copy?

[dogtired]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Di,
I had two via the FOS last year.
Both with HBOS

A bank of Scotland Card, "sold" to Cabot who had already said it was "irretrievable, the refund went to them and I got £80
A Sainsbury card which was passed to Blair Oliver Scott during the PPI dispute.
With that I got the letter one day and the refund, in full to days later, "In settlement"
I still got letters from Blair Oliver and when I requested a CCA they paid the fee onto the alleged remaining debt.
This is still ongoing and up to now has been with four DCAs,
A SDAR had the wrong name on a copy of terms and conditions and there were date discrepancies.

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

It's a shame we can't force them to reveal the price for which they sold / bought the debt in the assignment isn't it. It would make life easier!

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

If the account has been sold on in full, as it clearly has, to my mind the DCA has no right to access or be given any further information from the bank, but I'm not sure, hence my question about the DCA.

As for the bank, it has completed its business with the DCA, so should have nothing further to do with them IMO. I'm unsure whether when they sell the debt on and offset against tax, the sum offset is the sum of any loan, or the total sum of loan + ppi. If the latter, there is no doubt in my mind that morally the money should go direct to the person to whom it was mis-sold.

The trick of selling it back, doing the refund to the debt, then reselling it again is downright immoral - I'm sure they would argue otherwise! What would happen, for example, if this happened and the amount reclaimed was higher than the amount for which the bank sold the debt to the DCA - this can't be unusual for older debts? The debt would presumably be paid off in full, and there would be a surplus. I have little doubt that the bank would 'find a way' to deduct the ppi from the initial debt though, and not the valueof the debt at sale. Does that make sense?

Cheers and yes it certainly does make sense.
I would have thought it was illegal for them to do that (buying back) then selling the debt again, but they seem to have a law of their own when they want to don't they?

Maybe it would be a good idea for (family friend) to also forward the letter(s) he received from both Lloyds and Cabot, as I'm aware he complained to the FOS before the OC sold the debt on to the DCA.

Thank you.

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

If the account has been sold on in full, as it clearly has, to my mind the DCA has no right to access or be given any further information from the bank, but I'm not sure, hence my question about the DCA.

As for the bank, it has completed its business with the DCA, so should have nothing further to do with them IMO. I'm unsure whether when they sell the debt on and offset against tax, the sum offset is the sum of any loan, or the total sum of loan + ppi. If the latter, there is no doubt in my mind that morally the money should go direct to the person to whom it was mis-sold.

The trick of selling it back, doing the refund to the debt, then reselling it again is downright immoral - I'm sure they would argue otherwise! What would happen, for example, if this happened and the amount reclaimed was higher than the amount for which the bank sold the debt to the DCA - this can't be unusual for older debts? The debt would presumably be paid off in full, and there would be a surplus. I have little doubt that the bank would 'find a way' to deduct the ppi from the initial debt though, and not the valueof the debt at sale. Does that make sense?

[di30]

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

The family friend I mentioned, he fell into some hardship difficulties a few years ago, he became ill and could no longer work, I know he has some PPI issues, and now recently dealt with an account package of which he believes he was sold a £25 month packaged accounts where not everything, apart from about 1 product that suited his requirements.
He could no longer afford to keep the account going and went very overdrawn, and they failed to help him change to an account to suit him best.

Anyway, he complained of this to the bank and they rejected to the final decision, and decided to take it to the FOS.

I know he would not mind that if he was successful that it was used to help reduce the debt, but the point here is now what would happen to his refund. (The letter I copied above is his letter(s).

As this is now left to the FOS to make a decision about this, then it maybe that they will agree that the refund should automatically go to the DCA??

Re: Debt Collection Agencies/Refunds

Yes, that's definitely an Absolute Assignment Di! :beagle: