Chalkitup v RBS

[Chalkitup]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Hello All,

Sorry to be a pest but any help appreciated re my last post please as Moorcroft have already sent me a letter saying basically I have received everything so now "start paying"!!

This is the first SAR response I have ever received so not sure if it is correct or my next move!!

My gut feeling is the sentence within their SAR reply (above post) is the important factor .... which reads "We have been unable to trace a copy of your signed agreement / application form and it appears this has been mis-filed" ........ surely until they find that ... the account is unenforceable and that also means they took the CCA agreement true copy from other sources as their "pick list" (above post) also proves.

[Budgie]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Perhaps it would be useful for us to know what you wish to achieve chalkitup.

Also a bit of background regarding the credit card account would be useful.

You say the Credit Card account was terminated in 2006?
Presumably there is an outstanding balance that is now being chased?
How much do you owe?
Have you made any payments since the account was terminated?
They have also sent you all of your statements since opening the account, are there a significant number of charges on the account, what amount, have you attempted to recover these charges?

What do you hope to achieve at the end of all of this ?

[Angry Cat]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

[Quote] by: chalkitup:

I asked for a copy of all manual notes applied to account ........... they answer that they only store them for two years ......... hence they have sent me a sheet of paper with eight dates on it and a line of info by each date ......... it covers the last four months ........... i.e. the CCA and this SAR request!!!! Nothing at all from 2006 when all my problems started.[Quote]

I had the same from RBS;
I asked for all log coms and manual notes.

None were supplied; only a single A4 sheet, as per chalkitup.

Log a formal complaint with the ICO; you can download a complaint form.

Trying to obtain data from RBS, is like pulling teeth!

[Amethyst]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

You mentioned the recreation was nothing like the copy you signed (as you have the original) - were all the details on the recreation the same as on your original (ie just laid out differently) or are there some major differences / flaws /prescribed terms missing that they have added in to this recreation ?

[Ihaterbs]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Hello,

Written so many letters to DCA's today that I am now having a brain malfunction.

Approximately three months ago I sent CCA request to RBS re credit card account ........ they responded with undated generic T&C's with my name and address typed at the top and a letter saying "true copy" of agreement and obviously quoting Carey (HHJ Waksman).

Like most of my accounts I have my own copy from years ago of the application form I signed and it is nothing like what they have sent me.

About a month ago Moorcroft started their threatograms ............. now that I have finally got round to this account I am going to send the "do not recognise what you have sent me + put in writing what you have sent is a true copy + no phone calls + no doorstep callers" letter ..................... but Who should I send it to now Moorcroft have become involved so suddenly? RBS or Moorcroft?

By the way ...... account was terminated in 2006 on the back of a DN that shows no date of when it was actually written/sent and only a date for when the action must be taken ......... When did DN's change from 7 to 14 days because with this one if I take the date of the accompanying letter they sent then it still does not give me 14 days to take action.

Thanks

You say you kept the original application form.

Did you photocopy the form before sending it back? or am I reading this wrongly?

[Angry Cat]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

[Quote] by RBS:
"We have been unable to trace a copy of your signed agreement / application form and it appears this has been mis-filed, however there is a true copy of the agreement which was supplied by the section 78 team within the correspondence provided"[Quote]

RBS, sent out hundreds of similar letters prior to the Carey judgement, they also sent out reconstituded credit agreements, in order to comply with s.78. However, unless they can provide the inception terms and conditions as well as the terms as varied, the recons are useless.
Note, a credit agreement cannot be reconstituted, unless the lender the lender can provide the terms upon which the same was based.

[WendyB]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Sorry I'm getting confused here. Have you got your own copy of the original application form from 9 years ago, or the agreement from 9 years ago? Or both?

[Angry Cat]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

I take the view that, the prudent consumer should always take copies of any important documents and keep them in a safe place.

Chalkitup (and others) may find the following of particular interest:
http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/bus...al/oft1107.pdf

[Chalkitup]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Hello All,

Thank you for all replies .......... here is the info each of you are asking all in one post ...........

Budgie
The background info to my current problems .......

2006 - Self employed ......... Ran into financial difficulties - started Debt Management Plan with CCCS - Paid monthly way over what I could really afford (by paying from my business!!) as was scared by all the threats etc that I received from creditors / DCA's ...... so much that I sold belongings to cover CCCS payments .......

2007 - I stumbled across CAG online and started to realise I was being foolish and bullied by OC / DCA's ....... I sent CCA requests to a few "difficult" creditors

2007 to Feb 2010 - got some creditors removed from my CCCS DMP because they did not comply to CCA requests ....... also after an annual review CCCS dramatically reduced my payments to creditors to their minimum allowed.

Feb 2010 - Big bust up with CCCS as they refused to remove creditors from DMP any more even if they sent nothing in response to CCA request - I went through annual CCCS review and as it happens I did not have enough cash left over each month to pay creditors even £5 each (CCCS told me the minimum they allow) - CCCS stopped my DMP because of this!

The amount is £8000 .......... I am on benefits now and have nothing over each month ........ in rented accommodation ...... I try to explain this to DCAs etc and I get letters back saying pay £120 a month or we need full payment etc etc ...... they totally ignore my financial situation.

I suppose because I joined CCCS and wanted to pay everyone back in time that I have not got many charges on any account .......... some adding interest still!!! Only about £45 added on this RBS account.

Amethyst
You asked ...... "You mentioned the recreation was nothing like the copy you signed (as you have the original) - were all the details on the recreation the same as on your original (ie just laid out differently) or are there some major differences / flaws /prescribed terms missing that they have added in to this recreation"

The recreation is five pages of T&Cs and is perfect as you can guess ............. the application form I signed was an invitation only type mailer one ....... name and address already typed on it .......... I filled in a few details and signed it at bottom ......... Absolutely NO prescribed terms on it (No terms at all actually) ............... plus I did not copy the back of it .... which means there were no legal terms and conditions there (I did not copy the back if it was only sales blurb etc) ............ this is sort of backed up by ..... they have in writing on the front the following "Please read carefully clause 11 headed "your information" in the accompanying General Conditions" and "I accept and agree to be bound by the General Conditions applying to the card as set out separately and the details about this card as set out overleaf". Grey area re "details" but if they were in any way legal etc I would have copied them.

No interest rates or anything on the front where I signed.


Ihaterbs
Yes I copied application form before sending back ........... that is all I ever signed like most of us .............. I think above answers your other questions I received!!


WendyB
Sorry for confusion ...... I am having 12 accounts thrown at me by OC / DCAs so as you can imagine I do get a little confused writing these up ...
I have my copy of the application form from nine years ago and I have the sales blurb letter that came with it.
I can not locate the first card carrier for this account ...... which had all the terms on it.

Angry Cat
I will read your link later and have taken note of you posts

Thank you all

[Amethyst]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

So the recreation is just the T&C's, not the actual executed agreement, or have they recreated the actual document you signed too ?

We've seen from Slater v Egg the judge is liable to permit the creditors evidence that they sent the T&Cs seperately (and the application you have refers to them despite them being in a seperate leaflet in your opinion) so on balance of probablilities he is quite likely to find similarly.

[Chalkitup]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

The recreation they sent for CCA response (plus sent me an identical copy in SAR) is five pages of T&Cs ......... they have not sent a recreation of application form I signed .......... infact in SAR letter they actually say " "We have been unable to trace a copy of your signed agreement / application form and it appears this has been mis-filed, however there is a true copy of the agreement which was supplied by the section 78 team within the correspondence provided"

[Angry Cat]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Ah, so it is an issue 2000/2001 credit agreement.
But all that you have been provided with, is 5 pages of terms & conditions and;
a recon.
RBS state:
the executed copy of the application form has been mis-filed/mis-laid.

Chalkitup, please post up the 5 pages of T&C's.

Have you been provided with the inception T&C's? [Important Question]

p.s. Aren't RBS, famous for their recreation department?

[Chalkitup]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Ah, so it is an issue 2000/2001 credit agreement.
Early 2002
But all that you have been provided with, is 5 pages of terms & conditions Yes but they have typed at the top ... Copy of Credit Agreement ... (which states late payment fee is £18 yet in their 2006 T&Cs it is £20 before they reduced it to £12) and; a recon. The T&Cs are the recon
RBS state:
the executed copy of the application form has been mis-filed/mis-laid. Yes

Chalkitup, please post up the 5 pages of T&C's. Will do tomorrow ... I suppose the same format as OTR?

Have you been provided with the inception T&C's? [Important Question] That is what the recreation is. Isn't it??? If not then I have received nothing else at all from 2002

p.s. Aren't RBS, famous for their recreation department? Yes

They have sent me nothing at all that I signed when I took the card out
.......

[Chalkitup]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

I will write to Moorcroft saying I will not have any correspondence what so ever with them as account in dispute.

And I will write to RBS saying until original executed application form that I signed is found the account is unenforceable.

[Chalkitup]

Re: Chalkitup v RBS

Update

Moorcroft have obviously given up as I have today received a letter from RMA. They have been telephoning me since mid Dec also but Truecall has been doing a fine job in holding them at bay.

I plan to write to RMA explaining that RBS have written to me saying "We have been unable to trace a copy of your signed agreement / application form and it appears this has been mis-filed, however there is a true copy of the agreement which was supplied by the section 78 team within the correspondence provided" and point out to RMA that even though I have received a s78 copy it would not enable them to enforce in court. I will also attach the interpretation by the Head of Enforcement-Susan Edwards on the importance of Regs 5 and 6 of CPUTR 2008 and ask outright if they now hold the original executed agreement.

Comments please ?