Old Credit Card debts - All sold on and defaults gone from credit reports....

[steslem]

Hi All, I am after a little advise if possible. Here is the current situation.

Between myself and my wife we have 7 Old credit card debts that hve been sold on and the original defaults have been removed from credit files as over 6 years old.

We have:

3 x PRA group repayment plans, £5 each per month, this has been paid for around 6 plus years. Total debt for 3 cards is £29,000 approx.
2 x Moorcroft repayment plans, £ 5 and £7 per month, paid for last 6 years. Total debt for these 2 cards is £9,000 approx.
2 x Wescot repayment plans, £5 each per month, Paid for last 6 plys years. Total debt for these 2 cards is £8,000 Approx.

Total debt in credit cards is approx £46,000.

I originally spoke the debt collection agencies around 6 years ago (when debt was sold) and arranged the small payments and have paid every month since then. Never entered into IVA or DMP.

My cards originally set up in 2006, my wifes 2007 to 2008.

I am currently thinking about contacting them all and requesting CCA's for all accounts..... My Question is, if i request the CCA's and they are supplied and correct, does this open the door for them to start enforcing / chasing me more for the collection money. I currently dont get bothered from them and just pay the small payment, Obviously this would take many years to pay of and would like to try if possible to get rid of them but worry about the implications.Our Situation has changed and we currently own a house, am i putting this at risk of having charges put on it if i request and they have them?

Thanks in advance

Ste

[echat11]

Hi STESLEM

Welcome to LB

a) My Question is, if i request the CCA's and they are supplied and correct, does this open the door for them to start enforcing / chasing me more for the collection money.

I doubt that they would try to make a change to the current payment plan.
If they do try, you will only have to pay what you can afford, that is what a Court
would ask you to pay i.e. fill in an I & E form etc, So if it's £1 a month so be it.

b) I currently dont get bothered from them and just pay the small payment, Obviously this would take many years to pay of and would like to try if possible to get rid of them but worry about the implications.Our Situation has changed and we currently own a house, am i putting this at risk of having charges put on it if i request and they have them?

For them to do that they would need compliant CCA agreements, the likelihood of them getting copies is 'low' because of the age. Making the debt 'unenforceable'.
You could consider making 'Full and Final Settlement' offers, the offer letter must be marked 'Without Prejudice', offer a low amount i.e. 5%.

[steslem]

Hi ECHAT11,

Thank you for the welcome and response. Can i ask, in which order would you suggest - CCA requests first or just straight up full n final settlement offer?

Thanks again.

[echat11]

Hi ECHAT11,

Thank you for the welcome and response. Can i ask, in which order would you suggest - CCA requests first or just straight up full n final settlement offer?

Thanks again.

CCA first. If they can't find a copy of the agreement and then you make low offer, they are more likely to consider and accept the offer.
Baer in mind, that they may send nonsense. Make sure you get Proof of Postage.

https://legalbeagles.info/library/gu...etter-example/

Update when you get a response.

[steslem]

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in posting, Finally managed to send out the CCA requests for all 8 accounts on the 12th of Jan.

Had a response from all of them stating the recieved the request and have requested the information from the creditors and will be in touch when they receive it.

3 from Moorcroft
3 PRA
2 Wescot

I recieved these back around the 26th Jan and onwards.




I have today recieved a further response from Moorcroft regarding the HSBC account:

Here is the response from moorcroft:

"Further to your recent communication in respect of the above account, we are writing to confirm we have been
in contact with HSBC UK Bank plc.

Please find enclosed a copy of the agreement for the above account as requested.

If you do not have a current repayment plan in place, please be aware that we are always happy to seek to
reach an agreement which you can afford and maintain, based upon your financial circumstances. However, if
there is a repayment plan in place and you are happy that you can continue to afford and maintain it then
please continue with your arrangement."




I have then recieved a Zip file attchmnent via enmail - 4 Pages in total

2 pages are a copy of the original agreement (my copy) without signatiure and

2 pages the same agreement with my signature dated 05/12/2006 (banks copy)

On My copy of the Agreement the last this it states in a big box is: This agreement is also subject to the credit card agreement terms, which accompany it, and referneces to clauses in this agreement are references to clauses in the credit card agreement temrs.


Thats all that was sent.

No Statement of account.....

And no Terms and conditions.....

The agrement clearly references lots of clauses in the terms and conditions but T and C's not sent.

Looking over the agreement it looks to have most of the relevent info - my name and address, banks details - interest rate etc but for my credit limit the agreement states as follows:


Credit Limit: your credit limit will be the amount determined by us from time to time and nitified to you, We may limit the amount of cash advances and if we do this we will notify you.



When i read the response from morrcroft it seems this is all they are sending and that they feel have fulfiled my request. No mention of anything other than what they have sent....


Just for info - i sent the second more in depth CCA request form to all...


A quick question regarding statement of account - should that be a statement from the bank with payments and interest paid to the bank and balance owed etc - or a statement from say moorcroft with outstanding balance and payments made to morrcroft etc? I hope this is not a silly question.... I was thinking it should be from the bank?


Also and the main one..

What would be the next steps regarding this one with moorcroft? Write back to them stating they havent fullfild the request and the debt is unenforcible ? Is there is a standard response to this somewhere?

and Finally - am i right thinking they havent fulfilled the request and supplied everything they are required to under sections 77-79 of the CCA 1974?

Thanks

Ste


ps, now in a position to give this my full attention (why i waitied until Jan)

[echat11]

Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in posting, Finally managed to send out the CCA requests for all 8 accounts on the 12th of Jan.

Had a response from all of them stating the recieved the request and have requested the information from the creditors and will be in touch when they receive it.

3 from Moorcroft
3 PRA
2 Wescot

I recieved these back around the 26th Jan and onwards.




I have today recieved a further response from Moorcroft regarding the HSBC account:

Here is the response from moorcroft:

"Further to your recent communication in respect of the above account, we are writing to confirm we have been
in contact with HSBC UK Bank plc.

Please find enclosed a copy of the agreement for the above account as requested.

If you do not have a current repayment plan in place, please be aware that we are always happy to seek to
reach an agreement which you can afford and maintain, based upon your financial circumstances. However, if
there is a repayment plan in place and you are happy that you can continue to afford and maintain it then
please continue with your arrangement."




I have then recieved a Zip file attchmnent via enmail - 4 Pages in total

2 pages are a copy of the original agreement (my copy) without signatiure and

2 pages the same agreement with my signature dated 05/12/2006 (banks copy)

On My copy of the Agreement the last this it states in a big box is: This agreement is also subject to the credit card agreement terms, which accompany it, and referneces to clauses in this agreement are references to clauses in the credit card agreement temrs.


Thats all that was sent.

No Statement of account.....

And no Terms and conditions.....

The agrement clearly references lots of clauses in the terms and conditions but T and C's not sent.

Looking over the agreement it looks to have most of the relevent info - my name and address, banks details - interest rate etc but for my credit limit the agreement states as follows:


Credit Limit: your credit limit will be the amount determined by us from time to time and nitified to you, We may limit the amount of cash advances and if we do this we will notify you.



When i read the response from morrcroft it seems this is all they are sending and that they feel have fulfiled my request. No mention of anything other than what they have sent....


Just for info - i sent the second more in depth CCA request form to all...


A quick question regarding statement of account - should that be a statement from the bank with payments and interest paid to the bank and balance owed etc - or a statement from say moorcroft with outstanding balance and payments made to morrcroft etc? I hope this is not a silly question.... I was thinking it should be from the bank?


Also and the main one..

What would be the next steps regarding this one with moorcroft? Write back to them stating they havent fullfild the request and the debt is unenforcible ? Is there is a standard response to this somewhere?

and Finally - am i right thinking they havent fulfilled the request and supplied everything they are required to under sections 77-79 of the CCA 1974?

Thanks

Ste


ps, now in a position to give this my full attention (why i waitied until Jan)

From what you are saying, it looks like the agreement is 'unenforceable'.
If the agreement has been 'varied' then they would need to provide copies of the 'varied' agreements.
They would need to provide the Terms and Conditions.

If the agreement is 'unenforceable', they need to tell you that is the case, they can't mis-lead you into believing that it is 'enforceable'.

https://lawzone.legal/when-is-a-cred...unenforceable/

[steslem]

From what you are saying, it looks like the agreement is 'unenforceable'.
If the agreement has been 'varied' then they would need to provide copies of the 'varied' agreements.
They would need to provide the Terms and Conditions.

If the agreement is 'unenforceable', they need to tell you that is the case, they can't mis-lead you into believing that it is 'enforceable'.

https://lawzone.legal/when-is-a-cred...unenforceable/

Thanks Echat11,

When you say if the account has been 'Varied' - is this beacuse there is no stipulated credit limit and that it will be determined by them from time to time and notify me?

There is definatly no T's and C's - would they need to provide seperate T's and C's with the 'Varied' agreements aswell as original T's and C's?

What would be my next step, inform them that it is 'unenforceable' ? and do i need to point out why? Is there a standard reply for for this next stage ?



I have attached what has been sent - blanked out personal details

[echat11]

Thanks Echat11,

When you say if the account has been 'Varied' - is this beacuse there is no stipulated credit limit and that it will be determined by them from time to time and notify me?

There is definatly no T's and C's - would they need to provide seperate T's and C's with the 'Varied' agreements aswell as original T's and C's?

What would be my next step, inform them that it is 'unenforceable' ? and do i need to point out why? Is there a standard reply for for this next stage ?



I have attached what has been sent - blanked out personal details

The original agreement would of had a credit limit, they wouldn't have said 'here's a credit card and let you spend £X,XXX,XXX on it.

The 'variation' is when the credit limit, APR, etc changes from the 'original' agreement. So they need to send the T's and C's for those changes.

Just write back, thank them for the documents they sent, state that they haven't complied with your CCA request on XX/XX/XX. That the agreement is 'unenforceable'
until they provide the requested documentation. See what come back with. The FCA states that they shouldn't mislead you into believing that it is 'enforceable' when it isn't.
They should be 'upfront' and tell you that is the case.

[steslem]

The original agreement would of had a credit limit, they wouldn't have said 'here's a credit card and let you spend £X,XXX,XXX on it.

The 'variation' is when the credit limit, APR, etc changes from the 'original' agreement. So they need to send the T's and C's for those changes.

Just write back, thank them for the documents they sent, state that they haven't complied with your CCA request on XX/XX/XX. That the agreement is 'unenforceable'
until they provide the requested documentation. See what come back with. The FCA states that they shouldn't mislead you into believing that it is 'enforceable' when it isn't.
They should be 'upfront' and tell you that is the case.

Thanks echat11,

Typing letter up today and will get it in the post. Would you send reply by letter only or via email aswell?

I will post up response if i get one, still waiting on others to respond.

Ste

[echat11]

Thanks echat11,

Typing letter up today and will get it in the post. Would you send reply by letter only or via email aswell?

I will post up response if i get one, still waiting on others to respond.

Ste

You can do both.

[steslem]

Thanks echat11,

Typing letter up today and will get it in the post. Would you send reply by letter only or via email aswell?

I will post up response if i get one, still waiting on others to respond.

Ste

Hi echat11

I sent both email and signed for letter, had a response today from moorcroft. Its the exact same response i got from the initial CCA request. The same covering letter(just changed date) and same 4 pages sent as response. No mention of anything else.

What would be my next step?

Thanks
Ste

[echat11]

Hi echat11

I sent both email and signed for letter, had a response today from moorcroft. Its the exact same response i got from the initial CCA request. The same covering letter(just changed date) and same 4 pages sent as response. No mention of anything else.

What would be my next step?

Thanks
Ste

What they've sent isn't compliant, I can't see an address (is it there?).

They state 'This agreement is also subject to the Credit Card Agreement Terms which accompany it' but they haven't sent any.
They haven't sent any copies of 'variations', in the time that the card account has been operating they would have increased the
APR, the credit limit etc, but they have not provided T' & C's to those changes.

Although the account is 'unenforceable' they can still chase the debt, what they can't do is take the matter to Court, but you have
a non compliant agreement.

You could write back, state that you believe the account is 'unenforceable', that you have lodged a complaint with the FCA (lodge a
complaint with the FCA - they don't look into individual complaints, but they do log them). If you are paying, you could consider
stopping payments.

[steslem]

What they've sent isn't compliant, I can't see an address (is it there?).

They state 'This agreement is also subject to the Credit Card Agreement Terms which accompany it' but they haven't sent any.
They haven't sent any copies of 'variations', in the time that the card account has been operating they would have increased the
APR, the credit limit etc, but they have not provided T' & C's to those changes.

Although the account is 'unenforceable' they can still chase the debt, what they can't do is take the matter to Court, but you have
a non compliant agreement.

You could write back, state that you believe the account is 'unenforceable', that you have lodged a complaint with the FCA (lodge a
complaint with the FCA - they don't look into individual complaints, but they do log them). If you are paying, you could consider
stopping payments.

Hi,

Thanks for the response, I have been lost in reading up for last couple of hours......

My name and address is on the agreement (blanked out by me) and its on both copies.

Correct, no Credit Card Agreement Terms (that should accompany the CCA) and no copies of any Variations (probbly lots of them over the years too) and no T & C's for the changes.

There is definatly no specified credit limit on either copy of the Credit card agreement - just this statement " Your credit limit will be the amount determined by us from time to time and notified to you"
Nothing sent in regards to a credit limit being added at anytime or changed and No T & C's relating to these changes.

When i write back and state that I believe the account is 'unenforceable', do I need to specify all the points why? or just state I beleieve it is 'unenforceable' and do I state that I believe they are misleading me to think the debt is 'enforceable' when they know they cant produce the required documentation which I am entitled to under sections 77 – 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ?

Is this what I would also be lodging a complaint with the FCA?, them misleading me to think it is 'enforceable' when they cant produce the required documentation which I am entitled to under sections 77 – 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ?

Final one (for now) - regarding stopping payment.... would it be best to wait until they acknowledge its 'unenforceable' or just stop now ?

Sorry for all the questions.....

Thanks
Ste

[echat11]

a) When i write back and state that I believe the account is 'unenforceable', do I need to specify all the points why?

No you don't need to specify, they should be aware of what they need to do comply. When write back explain that you've lodged a complaint with the FCA.

b) 'them misleading me to think it is 'enforceable' when they cant produce the required documentation which I am entitled to under sections 77 – 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Yes that's correct, they are misleading you into believing the account is enforceable, when it's not, that breaches FCA's Guidelines.
They need to be 'upfront' and 'honest' in their dealings with you.

It will no doubt upset them, but that might be a 'good thing'.

c) Final one (for now) - regarding stopping payment.... would it be best to wait until they acknowledge its 'unenforceable' or just stop now ?

It's up to you, if your position is that it's 'unenforceable', if you continue to pay, they won't take you seriously.

[steslem]

a) When i write back and state that I believe the account is 'unenforceable', do I need to specify all the points why?

No you don't need to specify, they should be aware of what they need to do comply. When write back explain that you've lodged a complaint with the FCA.

b) 'them misleading me to think it is 'enforceable' when they cant produce the required documentation which I am entitled to under sections 77 – 79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

Yes that's correct, they are misleading you into believing the account is enforceable, when it's not, that breaches FCA's Guidelines.
They need to be 'upfront' and 'honest' in their dealings with you.

It will no doubt upset them, but that might be a 'good thing'.

c) Final one (for now) - regarding stopping payment.... would it be best to wait until they acknowledge its 'unenforceable' or just stop now ?

It's up to you, if your position is that it's 'unenforceable', if you continue to pay, they won't take you seriously.

Hi echat11

So I managed to lodge the complaint with the FCA (they have since replied and asked for more information). The night I managed to lodge the complaint I got a further response from Moorcroft, this was 215 pages of monthly credit card statements (3 pages each around 70 total) showing the £5 payment made each month to moorcroft. These are from march 2020 to jan 2026. Not sure if this matters but 90% of them have the wrong address on them as I have moved twice since then and they have all previous addresses.

None of the documents are signed by the bank.

Nothing has been sent regarding the account from 2006 to 2020.

When they have to supply a statement of account - Would the statements they have sent be suffice?

Does the statement of account only have to show payments made since moorcroft took over the account ?


I am going to send the letter now to moorcroft now stating that I believe the account is unenfoceable and that i believe they are misleading me into believeing it is enforceable (as per complaint to FCA and last message on here). There has been about 3 days delay since lodged the complaint with the FCA, the further response doesnt cover any of the inital issues with the CCA so this is still my position ?

Thanks
Ste

As soon as i get this out of the way I have 2 responses from other banks to post up.