M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Forget the transformation issue for now, would the application form M&S sent me make the agreement enforceable?

We can't tell without seeing it, however, I doubt that would really be relevant if you signed agreeing to T&Cs for a restricted use product you could only use in M&S stores.

I've also read somewhere that sending an unsolicited credit token is a criminal offence. I'll have to dig that up.

[PlanB]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

So basically they will attempt to bluff people that they have a case and if someone contests it on the basis of Mayhew then they will not risk going to Court

That would probably depend on the amount outstanding on the account. If it is over Ł5k then the case would be allocated to the county court Fast Track and they would be risking not only their own legal costs but made to pay the other side's costs if they lost. If the case is in the Small Claims Court they may want to have-a-go, although I'm aware of at least one case where M&S discontinued on receipt of a copy of the Santander vs Mayhew judgment the day before the hearing :fear:

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

So basically they will attempt to bluff people that they have a case and if someone contests it on the basis of Mayhew then they will not risk going to Court

It's very easy to bluff people because the majority haven't even heard about unenforceability, let alone card transformations or the Mayhew case! Forums like this one are beginning to raise awareness about these issues but sadly most people are still unaware of their legal rights and are easily intimidated by the banks and the threat monkeys they unleash.

We are privileged to have all this information and its our duty to spread the word, so more and more consumers are aware that creditors don't hold the upper hand. We are also lucky to have a couple of people on board here who were directly involved in the case, :clap2: not everyone's that lucky! :nono:

Let's not forget that Satan's Den didn't just miss out on the Ł5k Mayhew allegedly owed them on the infamous card, they were saddled with Ł50k worth of costs! :bounce:This is likely to act as a disincentive for any creditor in a similar situation to go to court, especially when they will have other cases that are easier to win.

[PlanB]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

As Plan B wisely says you need to have a plan b in case the judge doesn't agree with Judge Manners.

If another judge doesn't agree with Henrietta Manners' view then I would strongly suggest an Appeal. That would be your plan b. That's exactly the situation that M&S and Santander don't want to find themselves in because it would expose them to the possibility (I prefer probablility) of a legal precedent which would be binding on them in relation to the 5 million accounts they have on their books :eek2:

I should say that DJ Manners was most reluctant to reach her judgment and she spelt that out clearly throughout the day in court. In the end she had to concede that her hands were tied by the law. Believe me she tried very hard to avoid this. She was up against a damn fine barrister though and LIPs may not be so successful

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

If another judge doesn't agree with Henrietta Manners' view then I would strongly suggest an Appeal. That would be your plan b. That's exactly the situation that M&S and Santander don't want to find themselves in because it would expose them to the possibility (I prefer probablility) of a legal precedent which would be binding on them in relation to the 5 million accounts they have on their books :eek2:

I should say that DJ Manners was most reluctant to reach her judgment and she spelt that out clearly throughout the day in court. In the end she had to concede that her hands were tied by the law. Believe me she tried very hard to avoid this. She was up against a damn fine barrister though and LIPs may not be so successful

Mr $quandaŁto said on his first post that the balance is Ł10k, that's way above the small claims threshold, so it shouldn't be too difficult to find legal representation on a conditional basis I would think. :nerd:

But we're getting ahead of ourselves here, there's no indication whatsoever that this is ever going to court! In many cases the decision to go to court depends on the creditor's circumstances: if they are note homeowners there's no possibility of obtaining a charge on property to secure the debt, and if they are unemployed or on a low income, all they'd get is Ł1/month if they won and got the CCJ, hardly worth the trouble!

[pt2537]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

one wondes what triggered the sale of a huge portfolio of accounts to Sigma SPV limited???

Seems certain credit card company didnt fancy a second hammering at the hands of the judiciary.

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

That would probably depend on the amount outstanding on the account. If it is over Ł5k then the case would be allocated to the county court Fast Track and they would be risking not only their own legal costs but made to pay the other side's costs if they lost. If the case is in the Small Claims Court they may want to have-a-go, although I'm aware of at least one case where M&S discontinued on receipt of a copy of the Santander vs Mayhew judgment the day before the hearing :fear:

WOW! in that case, here it is, so you guys can 'hit them' with it if and when required. :okay:

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Yes that was the opinion of this judge in this particular case, it may well be that the judgment applies but until precedent is set each will turn on its own evidence, this is all I am saying.

These forums are full of county court judges opinions which vary from case to case, the Mayhew case was a tour de force in that the solicitors got judgment on a number of issues, including the DN, the section 78 and the lack of an original agreement.
I cant see in the transcript any indication of how much each of these elements contributed to the decision. the creditors seem to think the main factor was the lack of an original agreement( well they would).
caution is always a good idea in my opinion.
In any case Paul will asses the situation accurately for you I am sure.

Paul has seen the application form M&S sent and has assessed this case. He is the lawyer who kindly wrote a reply to Pre Legal Recoveries. I will use him if need be unless he has changed his mind about my case.

[gravytrain]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Paul has seen the application form M&S sent and has assessed this case. He is the lawyer who kindly wrote a reply to Pre Legal Recoveries. I will use him if need be unless he has changed his mind about my case.

Excellent

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Paul has seen the application form M&S sent and has assessed this case. He is the lawyer who kindly wrote a reply to Pre Legal Recoveries. I will use him if need be unless he has changed his mind about my case.

Hopefully you won't need to 'use him'! The idea is to keep this out of court, even if it's very similar to the Mayhew case, I'm sure she'd also rather have stayed out of court had she had the option. With a bit of luck, M&S will back off to avoid opening a can of worms with the other 2.5m transformed/converted/upgraded cards as noted on the BBC article.

[Mr $quandaŁot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Letter received from M&S Bank today, dated 29/01/13. '...In our previous letters, we mentioned that we may consider referring your account to a third-party debt collection agency. We have now decided that this is the most appropriate course of action, and have asked Rockwell Debt Collection Agency to take responsibility for your account.'

I look forward to winding them up when they ring me and won't be answering any of their security questions:cancan:

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

I can give you a list of all various DCAs that mine was passed to. They all threatened legal action but ended up just passing it down the line to the next bunch of muppets

[PlanB]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Letter received from M&S Bank today, dated 29/01/13. '...In our previous letters, we mentioned that we may consider referring your account to a third-party debt collection agency. We have now decided that this is the most appropriate course of action, and have asked Rockwell Debt Collection Agency to take responsibility for your account.'

Allow me to translate that letter into Plain English for you :nerd: This is what it really says: "we now know that you now know that we haven't got a legal leg to stand on so we're outsourcing our bully tactics to thugs called Rockwell because M&S is a 'family-friendly' company and we prefer to let others do our dirty work because we don't want to tarnish our image".
I don't suppose you sent them a copy of my Santander vs Mayhew judgment recently :whoo:

[ODC]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

You could of course advise M&S that as you consider the alleged debt to be in dispute and as such they should not pass it on

[FlamingParrot]

Re: M&S store card turned credit card - what next?

Letter received from M&S Bank today, dated 29/01/13. '...In our previous letters, we mentioned that we may consider referring your account to a third-party debt collection agency. We have now decided that this is the most appropriate course of action, and have asked Rockwell Debt Collection Agency to take responsibility for your account.'

I look forward to winding them up when they ring me and won't be answering any of their security questions:cancan:

As you know, it's best not to talk to them, been ages since a DCA rang me but when they did I either refused to go through security or pretended to be a lodger who didn't "speako da lingo". "So sorry she no here now" and nothing else! :rofl:

I would just wait for Rockwell to say 'hi' in writing, sometimes the OC may say you'll hear from a DCA and you never do. MBNA's last letter said my account would be passed to DCRI (in-house muppets), that was in Dec 2011, still waiting…:clock::clock:

Rockwell probably won't know anything about Mayhew, etc., so they will need updating, but that's a bridge to be crossed if and when you come to it. :bounce: :thumb: