Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

[Guest]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

English is a wondeful language when used and understood correctly.

consider = Think carefully about (something), typically before making a decision

It is neither a fact, nor a conjecture, perhaps on the way to becoming reasoned point of view from an agnostic perspective.

Vdr

So you had not made the decision.

Point is sooner or later you are going to have to let this go and the sooner you do the better for all of us, because we can all get on with something more productive.

Peter

[Amethyst]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

The account wasn't terminated because the DN was defective....thats my understanding anyway.

Both parties might think it terminated but as the DN was wrong it wasn't allowed to be terminated under the CCA so they had to reissue DN, then terminate, then lift the stay in court to enable enforcement.

[New_Age_Biker]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

M1
I think Peter is saying
The creditor cannot go to court unless the agreement is terminated
The creditor cannot terminate on a faulty Dn
The only sanction on a creditor who does go to court is he has to wait until he has issued a new, correct Dn (which is then defaulted) until he can persue his claim through court.
Peter also states that a new Dn cannot be issued on a terminated agreement, which it would have to be for the claim to be in court.....

It appears to be a circular argument

[Guest]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

So in my case, DN with no time for service and full amount claimed instead of arrears, termination letter (obviously disallowed), court claim issued referring on POC to the bad DN. They can stop proceedings at any stage and reissue the DN?

I'm at AQ right now, should I go for a strike out based on no right to proceed due to duff DN or just cave in now as they will just reissue and get away with it?

HI

I really think we should have a look at the default notice here.Does it give the option of remedy or is it just a demand for the ful ballance?

Peter

[Guest]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

M1
I think Peter is saying
The creditor cannot go to court unless the agreement is terminated
The creditor cannot terminate on a faulty Dn
The only sanction on a creditor who does go to court is he has to wait until he has issued a new, correct Dn (which is then defaulted) until he can persue his claim through court.
Peter also states that a new Dn cannot be issued on a terminated agreement, which it would have to be for the claim to be in court.....

It appears to be a circular argument

Indeed it is

BUt at the end of the day the judge has to be given the opportunity to judge.
Unles the default is enforced how can he decide if that enforcement is legitimate, when he decides on the effiacy of the enforcement he is also deciding if the temination is valid because it is part of that enforcement.

Peter

[volvodriver]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

So you had not made the decision.

Point is sooner or later you are going to have to let this go and the sooner you do the better for all of us, because we can all get on with something more productive.

Peter

I dont have to let anything go. And I have no position on the issue of bad notices.

I have always said that I have no legal training, nor knowledge of the law.

I do, however like to read well reasoned argument, and the in first post of your that I commented on this afternoon, you sought to use a badly quoted phrase from a judgement to attempt to give credibility to a position you, and others hold.

I have no argument with that position, but I do object to a position being supported on the basis of selective quoting.

The word often as I pointed out changes the meaning very significantly, and means that you are unable to use this judgement to support your assertion that bad notices can be remedied. They may well be able to be, this judgement does not support that view in its entirety.

If the judge had intended that he would not have introduced the element of uncertainty by qualifying his statement.

Vdr

[Amethyst]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

M1
I think Peter is saying
The creditor cannot go to court unless the agreement is terminated
The creditor cannot terminate on a faulty Dn
The only sanction on a creditor who does go to court is he has to wait until he has issued a new, correct Dn (which is then defaulted) until he can persue his claim through court.

I agree up to there

Peter also states that a new Dn cannot be issued on a terminated agreement, which it would have to be for the claim to be in court.....

that seems to be the sticking point for people ...the agreement ISN'T TERMINATED because it can't be due to the defective DN and is in court in error .... yes it should be kicked out and they should have to restart after the new DN isnt remedied but that doesn't sit right with the overriding objective.


Peter, I know it isn't unusual I just though B&W docs might help M1 out with the question.

[Amethyst]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

Also I have to agreed with volvodriver, the judge really hasn't placed much emphasis on the bad notice part at all and I don't know if it would be strong enough to be relied upon in a case solely reliant on a defective DN (ie creditor arguing it creates a precedent that they can reissue etc)

[Guest]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

I agree up to there

that seems to be the sticking point for people ...the agreement ISN'T TERMINATED because it can't be due to the defective DN and is in court in error .... yes it should be kicked out and they should have to restart after the new DN isnt remedied but that doesn't sit right with the overriding objective.


Peter, I know it isn't unusual I just though B&W docs might help M1 out with the question.

God what is it about me that everyone thnks i am having a go i am not, i am glad you posted this it is very helpful .Bet you think i am being sarcastic now, i am not, bloody hell


Peter

[Amethyst]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

lol sorry, and yes I know, I wasn't meaning it sarcasticly either. Actually I think there are three similar cases on here with Nationwide over the last year.

[pt2537]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

I do not think that it needs to be any clearer really,

Enforcement cannot occur on the back of a bad notice.

The bad notice can be remedied.

The court has the power to stay proceedings as we all know anyway.

So i dont see where the issue is

[Guest]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

Bit of selectiuve quoting here me thinks.

It actually says:


"

• . However, bad notices can often be remedied by the service of good notices and I see no reason why that should not be so in respect of credit agreements."

In the English I learned and studied the word often does not mean always. We should be asking when does "often" apply in respect of default notices, and what are the criteria for deciding whether in any particicular set of circumstances it can be remedied.

I consider the issue of bad notices still very much alive and kicking.

Vdr

NOt really selective the second half of the sentanse is also important where he particularily mentions the practice in a credit agrement.
Tell me which aspect of the bad notices issue do consider live and kicking

Peter

[Guest]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

Does that mean you agree with me?

Yes i do English is a wonderful language.

Leaving myself wide open here aint i.

Peter

[volvodriver]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

NOt really selective the second half of the sentanse is also important where he particularily mentions the practice in a credit agrement.
Tell me which aspect of the bad notices issue do consider live and kicking

Peter

Peter, it was selective and you know it - its written in black and white. Dont be obtuse.

He says he sees there is no reason why bad notices in credit agreements can also OFTEN be remedied.

Often, not always.

The aspect of bad niotices being alive and kicking is the argument that goes on, which this judgement DOES NOT resolve.

Vdr
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------

Yes i do English is a wonderful language.

Leaving myself wide open here aint i.

Peter

Yes because you are the master of obfuscation.

Do you need me to get a definition of that word?

Vdr

[Amethyst]

Re: Contracts, Termination, Repudiation and Rescission

Under what circumstances VD do you perceive reissue of a DN would be barred ?