Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Godzilla's argument was one of several on this thread, and jumper at no point accepted it as de facto.

Is it more the case that there have been questions asked of basic CCA provisions and the bank's interpretation that you are unwilling to answer, for reasons we can only guess at? And that Godzilla's posts are an alternative reason for abondoning ship?

Very disappointing, but very illuminating.

LA

For the record, I have obtained Counsels opinion on three occasions now.
The Repudiation argument was never mentioned or, advised.

Although, Negligence in Contract was, but that was in relation to PPI.

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Never thought i would say this but
Ditto
Peter

Godzilla's argument was one of several on this thread, and jumper at no point accepted it as de facto.

Is it more the case that there have been questions asked of basic CCA provisions and the bank's interpretation that you are unwilling to answer, for reasons we can only guess at? And that Godzilla's posts are an alternative reason for abondoning ship?

Very disappointing, but very illuminating.

LA

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[quote=pt2537:

For the record i do not believe the repudiation argument will work,i do think that there may well be mileage in the Unfairness under s140 and also you may be able to bring in the breach of the banking code, by way of the Consumer Protection from unfair trading regulations 2008. That would be my personal position, if it were me defending the matter.

i wish you good luck

Regards

Paul[/quote]

Sorry, Guys but I also agree with the above!

AC

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hi AME, Like I said that I would have accepted the FOS decision had I known what sum I was expected to pay truly, as there were charges added and as HSBC had not sent me my data request I could not agree......as I did not know what I was agreeing to.

I was not being unreasonable at all in this, it was only until I sent a 2nd data request that I received it this year in Jan 10

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

i am really sorry, but i am going to withdraw from this thread.

My reasons are that i cannot support the arguments run by Godzilla, nor am i prepared to spend my valuable time debating nonsensicle issues that lack merit.

For the record i do not believe the repudiation argument will work,i do think that there may well be mileage in the Unfairness under s140 and also you may be able to bring in the breach of the banking code, by way of the Consumer Protection from unfair trading regulations 2008. That would be my personal position, if it were me defending the matter.

i wish you good luck

Regards

Paul

Never thought i would say this but
Ditto
Peter

[middenmess]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[quote=Lord_Alcohol;182328][quote=Angry Cat;182324]

by LA:

I wonder if the banks and their systems are so sensitive to loss of their credit licences from the OFT due to preceived "irresponsible lending" that they prefer instead to wholly destroy a consumer's credit rating and use the courts than to risk loss of their core business. I suppose it makes sense from a commercial perspective, but leaves us without a hope when things go wrong.
LA

Banks worried about 'action' by the OFT??--yeah,right!

[Amethyst]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I'm not sure about your argument you were misadvised by CCCS, CAB, and National Debtline.

You look at your income first, make sure you can cover the roof over your head, heat, water, council tax (which could lead to imprisonment - ridiculously unlikely but its magistrates court not civil), essential food and ensure you can get to work if need be or the job centre each week. Then whats left can go to the non priority creditors and be split proportionally. ALL they can do is take you to civil court, which is what they are doing.

I'm not sure I understand the FOS situation though, maybe hidden back in earlier posts, but if there was an offer to accept repayments of X through the FOS how come those payments arent being made ?

Sorry I probably missed something, but your first post mentions the offer of £1 through FOS too, so I presume there is some reason why thats been ignored and its going to court ?

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[quote=Angry Cat;182324][quote] by LA:

Well, there we are. For Peter Bard and others who say that the banks are within their rights to take this sort of action I would say that they make a total mockery of legislation enacted by Parliament.

Factually, they do NOT always get it right!

e.g. I was defaulted several times whilst having a PPI claim in place.

It was not I who breached the terms of the agreement but, the OC themselves or, rather their PPI provider, who were unable to make the required PPI payments on time:
result, the computer spewed out default notices and then terminated the agreement, twice.

Every case is different...

Very true AC, yet here the bank is actually using a legal process which it cannot possibly be entitled to.

I wonder if the banks and their systems are so sensitive to loss of their credit licences from the OFT due to preceived "irresponsible lending" that they prefer instead to wholly destroy a consumer's credit rating and use the courts than to risk loss of their core business. I suppose it makes sense from a commercial perspective, but leaves us without a hope when things go wrong.

Sorry to see pt leave us.

LA

[pt2537]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

i am really sorry, but i am going to withdraw from this thread.

My reasons are that i cannot support the arguments run by Godzilla, nor am i prepared to spend my valuable time debating nonsensicle issues that lack merit.

For the record i do not believe the repudiation argument will work,i do think that there may well be mileage in the Unfairness under s140 and also you may be able to bring in the breach of the banking code, by way of the Consumer Protection from unfair trading regulations 2008. That would be my personal position, if it were me defending the matter.

i wish you good luck

Regards

Paul

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[Quote] by LA:

Well, there we are. For Peter Bard and others who say that the banks are within their rights to take this sort of action I would say that they make a total mockery of legislation enacted by Parliament. [Quote]

Factually, they do NOT always get it right!

e.g. I was defaulted several times whilst having a PPI claim in place.

It was not I who breached the terms of the agreement but, the OC themselves or, rather their PPI provider, who were unable to make the required PPI payments on time:
result, the computer spewed out default notices and then terminated the agreement, twice.

Every case is different...

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Well, there we are. For Peter Bard and others who say that the banks are within their rights to take this sort of action I would say that they make a total mockery of legislation enacted by Parliament.

Here is the ultimate defence; the DN has no effect at all as HSBC has ended the contract without even bothering to read s88, let alone comply with it.

To then issue a DN that purports to be served under s87(1) is an utter travesty.

I think I would be tempted to merely ask the court to dismiss the claim, as having no basis in law whatsoever.

Moreover, I would consider that the bank has removed its entitlement to all sums due through this gross repudiation and disregard of the Act.

If a court found in HSBC's favour, then that is consumer protection under credit agreements dead and buried, with the Act merely an optional extra for select banks that have a better understanding of doing business with the general public.

Just my opinion of course...

LA

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thanks LA for your comments, yes I was making an effort and not ignoring my responsibilities.........but the main thing is that I also seeked advice from three different places, CAB, CCCS and the National Debtline and they advised that I had to pay priority debts first and should make a token payment towards unsecured creditors.

I even have a CCCS ref number to prove that they were advising me, should I ask them to join in at the hearing? So the judge can ask them why they advised me this?

Anyway that is neither here or there is it, I believe that I am being not only prejudiced against but also victimized to a degree and maybe HSBC's intentions are not just to get a CCJ against me but to place a CO on my house, which going by their treatment of me I would not be surprised.

HSBC have contradicted themselves by agreeing to the FOS that they will accept £1 a month for 6 mths and knock off charges for the year 09, so why did they not agree in the first place where I had no charges and a lower sum to pay?

If I did agree to the paying the £1 as the FOS said then I would have signed an agreed to a figure which I had no knowledge of knowing what it could have been. How could I have been certain what the figure was, apart from the DG Sols letters, and as HSBC did not send me my Data Request until Jan 10.

If was just the matter of HSBC not allowing me enough days in the DN to remedy that would be a different story, but they have done much more than this and they are still not stopping.

They have also registered my account as Defaulted and closed prior to sending me a DN, they have marked my credit file that I was in 6 months arrears. All of this information is not true, as they had decided to close my account before issuing me with a DN and giving me a chance to clear myself.

Anyone who is reading this thread should take a lesson of what can happen if you breach your agreement. I should be a prime example of what a creditor/lender can do...............AND WE HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN TO COURT YET, THAT IS WHERE THE REAL FUN WILL BEGIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Ed.

I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post though, if a debtor believes they only have 14 days to rectify, but doesn't at any point because they think it makes no difference, who the hell is a judge to determine 'they didn't try' anyway. As PT says, being able to prove effort can go far, loan application, seeking a higher credit card limit, even maybe a witness statement asking family etc.

It all goes to effort, but if you have a Judge who thinks 'you didn't regardless' and dismisses a legislatively required 14 days, then it goes towards the belief Judges should be trained and accountable in my mind.

I think this goes to the heart of the matter. Jumper did not have 14 days available, and the unalterable fact remains that this is contrary to s88 and the 1983 Regs.

We see that much effort was made at the time and I am finding very little wrong with the basic proposition that, had the prescribed time been given, the outcome may have been very different. My view, for what it's worth, is that it is hard to argue that there was absolutely no possibility of jumper sorting the problem had she been given full entitlement to remedy. It is easier to argue that, as jumper was making considerable effort to remedy, the full timescale may have made all the difference.

The result is that HSBC unilaterally reduced jumper's choices and so influenced the final outcome in their favour. IMO, this is the prejudice that differentiates jumper's case from Brandon.

LA

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Forgot to mention prior to getting served with a DN I ran around like a headless chicken trying to find out what I could do to sort this mess out and I contacted the national debt line and the ccs and went to my CAB, all three agencies advised that I could make a token payment of £1 a month............so I will tell the judge that I mis advised and thought that I was doing the right thing.

Now obviously I have found out that I was not.

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Thank you ed for your comments, support and advice. All taken aboard.

OK, if we look at it through the eyes of the lender and according to them I am the 1st party to breach the agreement.

Also it their legal right if they want to accept a lower payment and if not there nothing the borrower can do.

All I am saying is that HSBC are taking me to court because they believe that I have breached the agreement and have not paid.

Although there is a bigger picture behind all this and is not as cut and dry as HSBC have put in their POC.

The judge whether he is related to hitler or not will want to know why I didn't pay.......and my defence will be that it is not that I did not want to pay but that HSBC from day one have been very unreasonable towards me.

The judge will want to know what I mean, then I will explain how I informed HSBC that I would be expecting to be in financial difficulty due to British Gas making an error in sending me my gas & electric bill. I done everything I could to try and balance things but was a bit hard so I found the CCC.S website, I even have a ref number which they gave me.

I was advised as utility bills were a priority debt then I would have to pay them 1st, and I could offer HSBC a token payment of £1 a month. I the wrote to HSBC and offered them more than this and they refused, even after I told them my situation.

Anyways, according to my credit file HSBC closed my account prior to serving me with a DN and showed that I was in 6 months arrears, and the sum they showed which I owed in that month was not the same sum according to that months statement. They then went and disable my account so I could not have access to it.

After being served with the DN I wrote again to make an offer and try and negotiate but I was refused again. In total I have 5 letters refusing my offers.........then during negotiations HSBC go and terminate my agreement and request the full balance.

I then kept receiving letters from them requesting payments and knew that whatever I said or offered they would continue to refuse......so had no choice but to complain to the FOS. HSBC agreed with the FOS that I could pay £1 a month for 6 mths then review, now I would have happily accepted this offer but as HSBC had failed to send me my Data Request I could not agree as I did not know the true sum I owed and could not sign blindly.

After contacting the FOS I wrote to HSBC and accepted their unlawful repudiation of my agreement and informed them of the DN they sent which was faulty, HSBC wrote back and said that it was not and if I was to bring any legal action against them they would vigorously defend it.

Since I received that letter in Jan 10 I heard nothing until Sept 10 from them saying that they were intending legal action and to apply for a CO.

Then last week I received a claim form. I am not disputing paying them neither am I denying that I owe them........but I am afraid and from experience I know that whatever I offer or do they will refuse......so I think it will be better if I did go to court and get this mess sorted out once and for all.

Fair enough I know I will get a CCJ against me, but at least I will know where I bloody stood, I have tried my best to negotiate and I will prove this.........only when all else failed I tried the faulty DN route etc etc.

So you see, the conclusion is that I am was not am not an unreasonable person neither did I have any intention of not paying.....I truly believe that I have been prejudiced against, and I am not going to court to get out of paying or get my debt written off, far from it.

In fact I will say it would be a relief to get this sorted out once and for all. If HSBC had co-operated then we would not have been in this position, but then again this is nothing new to them.

I can use the unfair relationship because HSBC have been very unreasonable to my reasonable requests. OK I get Hitler for a judge the end conclusion will be that I have to pay, and only what I can afford and get a CCJ. Story closed.


Ed, HSBC will say that they acted within the law and that is their right, but I am not disputing the debt and never have, it's just I have found it literally impossible to set up an arrangement to pay them.......and due to their initial refusals I have had to take drastic steps to find out my rights and how I can complain etc etc

If I was defending on the basis that I refused to pay, on the faulty DN, and termination on the back of this then I would seriously not do it............but I am not disputing the debt.........what I am is the way HSBC have treated me, and the faulty DN, termination, recording a Default on my credit file prior to serving me with a DN are just a few things against them.

In the end if the judge turns around and says everything I said does not matter at all, you have breached the agreement and now you must pay x amount each month then so be it I shall. It's not about me having my day in court or getting them back either.

I just want this to end as I have bigger fish to fry. I know I will lose, there is no question about that, but that is not why I will be going........the point of all of this is so that an arrangement can be made so that I can start paying off my debt and I think the judge will not be impressed with HSBC and how they have treated me as I am not a customer disputing paying.

I will just sit there and shine my halo, and if the judge has been to bed with HSBC the night before and says I have to pay, all I will say is thank god, when do I start?

I am not a debt avoider, and my actions and trail of evidence will prove this.............after all this I am sure that the judge will take in at least some of what has happened and sit up and if not then no problem, not much I can do.

THE END!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!