Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

PT

I hear (read) what you are saying, yes the judgment [is] wrong.

The Bard, I wondered when you were going to rear your head, I see you came in on the back of PT's comments.

In this case, the debtor did not default, a breach yes, a minor one at that, but not honour the agreement? Absolutely no, this defence for this particular case, there is nothing technical about it


The Bard, yes adjourned!! and this was after the claimant's app for Summary Judgment FAILED, why did it fail? Because the creditor repudiated on the agreement, fundamental breach of contract by the creditor!! The Bard, do not respond with your usual dribble referring to the said act (1974) and what the creditor is and is not entitled to do.

Kind Regards

Godzilla

I'll get my coat and leave you to squabble...

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

When I received my DN I did contact HSBC AGAIN WITH ANOTHER OFFER.

Maybe they thought I was offering them money in francs and that is why they kept refusing. I must go and check what I wrote!
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And what a lovely thought that is LA.
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I think if GZ has chosen not to expose what this evidence is yet then we should respect his wishes, he did say that he would reveal all after the case was done or did I read that somewhere else?

Seen all this before secret evdence, dont wish to disclose, rubbish it is none existant. Time to call a spade a spade before someone gets hurt following this.

Look over the road and see how many people have been left hanging out to dry after following these ramblings.

In fact dont even have to go that far.

Peter

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

OK Peter for arguments sake in your opinion let me put this question to you:

What do you think HSBC has done to deal with me fairly in all of this?

Yes I know what an agreement is as I am sure the majority of people who are facing financial crisis at the moment.

Was my breach of the agreement so severe that there was no other way for the creditor to fix? I cannot remember reading on my agreement that if I miss a few months payment then my agreement would be canceled but I will go and have a read now word for word.

Then again even if I don't find these words I am sure that someone will point out a certain act which says that this is possible.

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

no sorry the Link Financial one where the court said the agreement was irredeemably unenforceable

MBNA/Link Financial

[Godzilla]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

PT

I hear (read) what you are saying, yes the judgment [is] wrong.

The Bard, I wondered when you were going to rear your head, I see you came in on the back of PT's comments.

In this case, the debtor did not default, a breach yes, a minor one at that, but not honour the agreement? Absolutely no, this defence for this particular case, there is nothing technical about it


The Bard, yes adjourned!! and this was after the claimant's app for Summary Judgment FAILED, why did it fail? Because the creditor repudiated on the agreement, fundamental breach of contract by the creditor!! The Bard, do not respond with your usual dribble referring to the said act (1974) and what the creditor is and is not entitled to do.

Kind Regards

Godzilla

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Lat time I checked I was not an old boy GZ LOL! but you can call me that if you wish.

PT, you know your stuff and I appreciate your words of advice and warning. Like I said I really do not know what to do. Yes the creditor can refuse a smaller payment in consideration of a larger payment, but where the bloody hell were we suppose to know something like prior to signing our souls away.

If had been written in our agreement something like:

IF FOR ANY REASON IN THE FUTURE YOU SUFFER ANY KIND OF FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY WHETHER IT WAS YOUR OWN DOING OR NOT, AND IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY THE MINIMUM SUM REQUIRED JUST TO INFORM YOU THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT ANY SMALLER OFFERED BY YOU

AND BY THE WAY THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THIS. THANK YOU NOW SIGN HERE IF YOU STILL WANT TO BE LEGALLY BOUND BY OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

How many of us would have taken out agreements? No excuse I know but makes you think hey?

You really do not any idea of what an agrement is do you?

If you make an agreement it means you both agree to its tems there is a clue inthe word agreement.
If you breach the agreement then the creditor does not hae to accept anything he can sue.

Their are organisations to ensure that the creditor deals fairly with the debtor in times of hardship thes are not the county courts.

Peter

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I agree the judge was wrong

But, we are really stuck with this judgment, as it stands

Pity, because many emminent barristers included the argument in their clients defence, ("14 clear days") and were successful...

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

When I received my DN I did contact HSBC AGAIN WITH ANOTHER OFFER.

Maybe they thought I was offering them money in francs and that is why they kept refusing. I must go and check what I wrote!
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Using the same argument as HHJ Roderick Denyer QC, would it not be permissable to claim that the creditor suffered no prejudice by being paid late, and that therefore all late payment charges should be refunded?

Or that no prejudice is suffered by the lender if the arrears are paid in 2 months not 2 weeks, so that the agreement should continue and his action to claim all amounts cease?

In both cases the lender would receive interest as per T&Cs and lose no money and precisely the same argument is used for the debtor as for the creditor.

Presumably a judge that disagreed with this would be guilty of bias towards the lender?

Just a thought...

LA

And what a lovely thought that is LA.
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The hearing for SJ was just three (3) days away, I went through some of the documents to the case that my friend had sent me and in that bundle was a particular document that my friend had not realized the importance of.

I very quickly provided my friend with powerful legal argument based on this one particular document and also furnished him with the relevant CPR to use in order to submit the document in as evidence to substantiate his defence.


Sounds like an episode of Dick Tracy anyone know what he means

I think if GZ has chosen not to expose what this evidence is yet then we should respect his wishes, he did say that he would reveal all after the case was done or did I read that somewhere else?

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Using the same argument as HHJ Roderick Denyer QC, would it not be permissable to claim that the creditor suffered no prejudice by being paid late, and that therefore all late payment charges should be refunded?

Or that no prejudice is suffered by the lender if the arrears are paid in 2 months not 2 weeks, so that the agreement should continue and his action to claim all amounts cease?

In both cases the lender would receive interest as per T&Cs and lose no money and precisely the same argument is used for the debtor as for the creditor.

Presumably a judge that disagreed with this would be guilty of bias towards the lender?

Just a thought...

LA

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

The hearing for SJ was just three (3) days away, I went through some of the documents to the case that my friend had sent me and in that bundle was a particular document that my friend had not realized the importance of.

I very quickly provided my friend with powerful legal argument based on this one particular document and also furnished him with the relevant CPR to use in order to submit the document in as evidence to substantiate his defence.


Sounds like an episode of Dick Tracy anyone know what he means

[Angry Cat]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

WHOOOOO HOOOOO

Ive been trying to advocate this approach for months

Embarrased defences dont work, short term they may, but how sad will you feel when the opponents apply for costs as a result. I have a few sad clients who didnt like being ordered to pay average of £3k costs as a result of embarrassed Defences

Absolutely agree!

And in fact, alerted the site team to same a few months ago.

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Hello again jumper

I stated that I would post up the result of a case that was in Court today that I had presented argument for the defendant to use against the claim brought by the creditor.

I have spoken with the defendant in the said case (a very good friend of mine) and he has given his consent to me to post here some of the details to his case.

Firstly, I just want to say, Peter Bard eat your heart out, or if you don't have one, eat those socks you found under the tree.

Tried and tested argument - result = successful. The case has been adjourned today (by agreement between the two parties).

Back in the summer this year, my very good friend contacted and asked for some help on his case as the claimant had made an application for Summary Judgment against his initial defence to the claimant's claim.

The hearing for SJ was just three (3) days away, I went through some of the documents to the case that my friend had sent me and in that bundle was a particular document that my friend had not realized the importance of.

I very quickly provided my friend with powerful legal argument based on this one particular document and also furnished him with the relevant CPR to use in order to submit the document in as evidence to substantiate his defence.

On the day of the hearing (SJ hearing) counsel for the claimant tried to go for a walk in the park and was having a nice easy day, my friend had served the said document to the claimant on the day I informed him of the importance of it, the claimant ignored the document and the argument that I sent along with it.

So just as the claimant was attempting to wrap the claim up, my friend spoke up and disclosed the said document in Court, counsel tried it on saying far too late and the Judge was about to agree when my friend mentioned the relevant CPR that permitted disclosure of this extremely important document, the claimant's said appl for SJ FAILED at that point and proceedings were adjourned until today.

My friend has counsel representing him now and his legal rep is specialized in consumer law issues and all the complexities thereof, counsel for the defence (my friend) is using the arguments put forward by me against the claim and is attempting to persuade the claimant that he should discontinue with his action and abandon it altogether. As I have said at the begining of this post, the matter was adjourned by agreement today and I shall post further on this case the moment it is concluded.

As far as Brandon case is concerened, the said case has changed absolutely nothing, in fact, the Brandon case may have only set a precedent that might apply to consumers/debtors who have accounts/loans with Amex.

Peter the only thing that you are absolutely correct on is - Yes I post on CAG under the name 'The Mould', you could not contend with me there, there is no difference here, Peter Bard in my opinion you are a scaremonger.

More on this case to follow soon, jumper sorry to hyjack, however, I do know how important and relevant this case is to your own case.

Kind Regards to all.

Godzilla

Certainly showed me

Case ajourned

Pants
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As far as Brandon case is concerened, the said case has changed absolutely nothing, in fact, the Brandon case may have only set a precedent that might apply to consumers/debtors who have accounts/loans with Amex.


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More Pants

[pt2537]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I agree the judge was wrong

But, we are really stuck with this judgment, as it stands

[Lord_Alcohol]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

I really am struggling to follow this reasoning, HHJ Roderick Denyer QC gave a judgment sitting as a Judge of the High Court of Justice, which removes the invalid default notice argument.

If you do not get 14 days, then it causes no problem for the lender on the back of Brandon vs Amex.

So the defective default cannot act as a Defence, the words of HHJ Denyer

so, you are going to struggle with this i fear

Also, it is open to the creditor to refuse to accept payment of a smaller sum in consideration of a larger sum, see Re Selectmove and also Lord Dennings judgment in the High Trees case

PT, I consider your words to be definitive at all times, but I am confused! When I read ss 87 and 88, which say;

87(1) - Service of a notice on the debtor or hirer in accordance with section 88 (a " default notice ") is necessary....

88(1) The default notice must be in the prescribed form and specify...

...I am persuaded that the creditor must do these things in order to obtain his entitlements. For example, the Act does not state; is necessary unless no prejudice is suffered by the debtor...

Reading Brandon, the judge believed that no prejudice was suffered by the debtor as Amex did not take any action until after the 14 days, and in any case the Amex contract seemed to override the need for a DN through inclusion of a term that provided for immediate termination at any time.

IMHO, I firmly believe that the judge was utterly wrong on this, as what is to say that any creditor would refuse to accept payment of arrears as remedy after the 14 days? The creditor could merely say that he "took no action", causing the debt to be enforced even where the DN offered a couple of days. To me this is a gross breach of CCA and of the principles upon which it was based (in partic. "conusmer protection").

Is this really a hopeless defence?

Cheers
LA

[jumper999]

Re: Court claim issued by HSBC on a faulty DN & TN

Lat time I checked I was not an old boy GZ LOL! but you can call me that if you wish.

PT, you know your stuff and I appreciate your words of advice and warning. Like I said I really do not know what to do. Yes the creditor can refuse a smaller payment in consideration of a larger payment, but where the bloody hell were we suppose to know something like prior to signing our souls away.

If had been written in our agreement something like:

IF FOR ANY REASON IN THE FUTURE YOU SUFFER ANY KIND OF FINANCIAL DIFFICULTY WHETHER IT WAS YOUR OWN DOING OR NOT, AND IF YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO PAY THE MINIMUM SUM REQUIRED JUST TO INFORM YOU THAT WE DO NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT ANY SMALLER OFFERED BY YOU

AND BY THE WAY THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THIS. THANK YOU NOW SIGN HERE IF YOU STILL WANT TO BE LEGALLY BOUND BY OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

How many of us would have taken out agreements? No excuse I know but makes you think hey?