Is This Fraud? Hsbc

[zentrix9]

I sent a CCA request on 14/7/10 and got a reply on 28/7/10 from HSBC. They sent me a reconstituted copy of my credit application form which was hand written by someone at HSBC and the prescribed terms are missing. I put the account into dispute and sent them the letter on 18/08/10. I received a letter dated 19/8/10 telling me they had sent me what I asked for and that was their last word on the matter. I received a letter dated 25/8/10 which was a default notice. I received a letter dated 1/9/10 along with all my credit card statements offering to pay me any charges back on my account if I signed to take no further action. This letter also stated "With regards to your request for a true copy of the credit agreement, we have been unable to locate this at present" Sent SAR request 9/9/10. On 15/9/10 I faxed 2 letters regarding PPI claim and a claim under section 75. I received a letter dated 17/9/10 returning my SAR leter and the cheque saying the letter wasnt signed. I resent the SAR letter signed with a line through it on 20/9/10. Waiting for their next move.
They sent me a reconstituted copy of a CCA document they admit they dont have. By sending me this reconstituted copy without the original document that they should have by law to make a copy of are they sending me a fraudulant document? Can I threaten court action if they dont stop chasing me or write it off?

[Curlyben]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Simply put, NO.
As per the requirements clarified in the Carey test case the OC can supply a recon agreement in response to a s77/78 request.

[shamen]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

You should have better luck with the SAR - that should contain copies with signatures on.

By the way - they have no right to demand your signature for a SAR. I fought barclays on this very point as they seemed adamant to want my signature. I just let 30 of the 40 day period pass, then sent them another note saying they had no right to demand my signature, that the ICO guidelines state they only need to identify me positively and that i looked forward to receiving the SAR response within the legal timeframe, reminding them they only had 10 days to go. I followed this up with a phonecall yesterday and they have told me the package will be at my local branch for collection on day 40.


Good luck

[The Debt Star]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

they have no right to demand your signature for a SAR.

spot on. I had this problem with HSBC, they sent me a data protection act form to fill in and I refused. I sent them an unsigned letter demanding the data be sent to me and they did.. Well, they sent a huge box to my local branch for collection, which is fine. Except the weasles didn't tell me it had arrived and I happened to go in by chance. HSBC are b4stards. Keep on to 'em.

[zentrix9]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Ok so the letter isnt fraudulent, is it against the law? I have read somewhere they must have the original to supply you a reconstituted copy otherwise how could they make a copy.

[WendyB]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Ok so the letter isnt fraudulent, is it against the law? I have read somewhere they must have the original to supply you a reconstituted copy otherwise how could they make a copy.

Isn't "reconstituted" the key word here? I.e they reconstitute a copy from agreement they hold, as in "from the info we have, this is what it would have looked like". If they had a copy in the first place, why would they need to reconstitute one?

[zentrix9]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Just faxed them this :-


HSBC Bank Plc
365 Chartwell Square,
Southend-on-Sea
Essex
SS99 2UU
Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request
Account no: blahblahblah
Your letter dated 17/9/2010
Dear Sir/Madam

As per my letter dated 09/09/2010 for a subject access request.
You have no right to demand my signature.
You have been corresponding with me at the above address and by law this is sufficient to confirm who I am.
The ICO guidelines state that you only need to identify me positively and that could be done when I collect the documents from my local branch.
I have however sent another signed copy to stop any more stalling.
The original request dated 09/09/2010 still stands and you have 40 days from that letter to reply.

Yours faithfully,

Blahblahblah
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
Wendyb. Thats my point.
They are allowed to reconstitute an agreement but it looks like they are trying to use that as an excuse to cover up they dont have the original.

IT STINKS!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
P.S. Is faxing a document as good as sending it signed for? It speeds things up and I got a confirmation copy that they received it.

[shamen]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Id follow up the fax by sending a copy recorded delivery just to get a signature that says someone received it.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Which prescribed terms are missing on the recon ?

Thats what you should be looking at, a recon has to be an accurate and honest represenatation of the original agreement. So if prescribed terms are missing on the recon then they were on the original. If you can scan a copy in that would be useful.

[WendyB]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Wendyb. Thats my point.
They are allowed to reconstitute an agreement but it looks like they are trying to use that as an excuse to cover up they dont have the original.

IT STINKS!!!!!!!!!!
.

yes, but as Cb has pointed out above, they can supply a reconstituted one to satisfy a S77/78 request. Which they have done. I believe they would be required to supply the true copy if required in court, but as it hasn't got to court yet that's neither here nor there. Also, there has been a recent case where a DCA has won a case using Carey, it's being appealed but just goes to show...DCA wins judgment using Carey but not having an agreement - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

[zentrix9]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Both myself and my wife sent a CCA request. They sent her a photocopy of the original and sent me a handwritten copy and a *****y letter. Thats how I know that the prescribed terms are missing off the original cos my wife hasnt got them on her copy either.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Cool.

So which prescribed terms are missing ?

[Curlyben]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

And what about referenced T&C's ?

[WendyB]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

Is this in joint names? In which case if they have a photocopy then one could possibly presume they have the original?

Also, can you advise what the reasoning was behind the CCA request in the first place? What is the situation with the credt card at the moment, and what outcome are you hoping to achieve?

[Angry Cat]

Re: Is This Fraud? Hsbc

It is permissable to send a reconstituted credit agreement if, the original credit agreement has been lost/misplaced.
However, the creditor must also provide the inception Terms and Conditons (the T&C's that applied at the point of opening the account)

A Creditor, cannot reconstruct a credit agreement without the information upom which it was based[Emphasis Added]