Is it safe to contest the CCA?

[cymruambyth]

This has been posted on a thread on CAG, what do Legal Beagles think?

'The problem is that all this has all moved on quite a bit over the last few months (particularly since the Rankine fiasco), and advice now has to be different from what we were advising a few months ago. Courts are just not awarding cases to consumers merely because of technical breaches of the CCA 1974. You have to have more than that: you have to have a good argument why what the lender did was unfair, for example, selling you a load of useless PPI, or wrong, like sending you a credit card you never asked for.'

[lindylou]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I agree the line between actual and technical is very fuzzy.

If a company cannot prove that a CCA was issued complete with t&cs etc surely this is an actual breach.
If A DN does not give sufficient days, is not in the prescribed form and is inflated by charges then is this a mere technicality or????
Without sounding as though I subscribe to conspiracy theories ........ it would seem that in some quarters everything is being done to stop further financial problems by making actual breaches 'merely' technical breaches.

I have reported 1st Direct to the Office of fair Trading they are trying to go to court
on a case which will just waste time by the Courts I have not acknowledged
the debt because its so old not only that it is under Police Investigation
for being fraudently applied but still they insist with Court Action
This is not the first Complaint against them the Office of Fair trading are aware
of there bad practise. I just hope they are dealt with harshly as far as I am concerned
they are just trying to scare me but if I was not switched on to there dirty tactics
If I had the money maybe I would have paid just to stop them hounding me.
I feel sorry for OAPs living on a meagre pension perhaps with memory problems
living in fear of paying a debt from so long ago that they can't even remember
These Companies buying debts for peanuts then hounding the lives of the vunerable
causing stress & sorrow they should be closed down entirely got rid of
They don't appear to conform to the rules & restrictions of there License
Will keep you posted of my outcome regarding there insistance on Court Action
If they still carry through any advise regarding my charging them for the unecessary
stress and harrassment they are causing over a case which is subject to criminal investigation or am I wrong in which case I am being faced with Court Charges on
a debt which is not mine anyway.Unless they have some very good
evidence which I don't think they will have.If anyone has any advise please post

[Garlok]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Very good comment caspar.

However before all the doom and gloom merchants get on the band wagon, please read the judgement form the CofA. This just reinforces what we all already knew, compliance with section78 CCA1974 ONLY

1. Note that Brookes and Jemitus were both claimants bringing actions against the banks concerned.
2. Note that "Carey" is referred to by the CofA and says exactly the same as HHJ Waksman did in that recontstituted copies are acceptable for compliance with s78. Nothing else. It does not refer to originals documents being exempt from court appearances.
3. Please note the dates of the bringing of proceedings.
4. From my own knowledge it is certain that the standard advice from the solicitors concerned is not to bring actions against creditors but always to sit and wait for them to come to you and then defend.
5. Hence this is again an action brought to bring ground rules into play which will eventually have to be adhered to by all parties in these matters.

regards
Garlok.

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

This is where CPUTR 2008 can be very useful, as if you ask them a question under that, then they know their answer could well be brought up in court, and if they've told porkies, then they're in trouble.

Still tring to get my hed round the EU Regluations (BOS) that came in on Feb 1st 2011 to see if these can be used to back up CCA cases as well.

[GuidoT]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Oh dear.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2011/354.html

[equinox747]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

What guidelines can be used to differentiate an actual breach of the CCA 1974 with a 'technical breach of the CCA 1974' ?

As the whole concept behind the CCA 1974 was protection of the consumer why should we now not be able to rely on what is written within that law?

Judges have a certain latitude in interpreting the law but at present some are rewriting the law it would seem to fit in with their own beliefs about debt and debtors.

If this scenario was repeated in France for example, there would be mass protests throughout that country but here we appear to be meekly being led to slaughter.

couldn't agree with you more, your absolutly right, we just take it and get rolled over everytime...

[basa48]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

nah

not necessarily,

Cant say any more but not doomed

I find it odd that the 'alternative IEA' argument was not pursued and why Waksman said that too was bound to fail?

[pt2537]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

nah

not necessarily,

Cant say any more but not doomed

[basa48]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

also in Teasdale there was a party Erica Brookes v HSBC - seems she is appealing too

Title: BROOKES v HSBC BANK PLC Type: Appeal Appeal/Application: from the order of HHJ Waksman (sitting as a High Court Judge) QBD Manchester District Registry dated 23-Mar-10 Hearing Status: Float on 23-Feb-11 or 24-Feb-11 Venue: London Constitution: LORD JUSTICE WARD
LADY JUSTICE ARDEN
LORD JUSTICE MOORE-BICK

Doomed here as well judging by his HSBC V Brophy comment.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Didn't realise Sternlight was under appeal as well.

Title: Sternlight v Barclays Bank PLC Type: Appeal Appeal/Application: from the order of His Honour Judge Waksman QC (sitting as a High Court Judge) High Court of Justice QBD Manchester DR Mercantile Court dated 16-Jul-10 Hearing Status: Float on 24-Mar-11 or 25-Mar-11



also in Teasdale there was a party Erica Brookes v HSBC - seems she is appealing too??? costs ordeR? not sure...might be entirely different one.

Title: BROOKES v HSBC BANK PLC Type: Appeal Appeal/Application: from the order of HHJ Waksman (sitting as a High Court Judge) QBD Manchester District Registry dated 23-Mar-10 Hearing Status: Float on 23-Feb-11 or 24-Feb-11 Venue: London Constitution: LORD JUSTICE WARD
LADY JUSTICE ARDEN
LORD JUSTICE MOORE-BICK

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

- in firms favour (high court/court of appeal)

Slater v Egg
Carey v HSBC
Amex v Brandon (under appeal)
Amex v Duffy
Kneale v Barclaycard
Blackhorse v Speak
SPML v Walker
Brooks v Northern Rock
Sternlight and Others v Various banks (under appeal)
Napier v HFC
Teasdale v HSBC
Brophy v HFC (lost at appeal too)
Shaw v Nine Regions
Armstrong v Amex
Heath v SPML
McGuffick v RBS
Blackhorse v Hanson

Countycourt/forums
ccman v cabot (goldfish)
hunni2006 v cabot
Debenhams v Zhanzibhar
??? v Costa (going to appeal)


- in consumers favour (high court/court of appeal)

Durkin v DSG Retail
Crutchely v Godebt
Yates v Nemo (PPI)
Woollerton v Blackhorse (PPI)
MBNA v Thouris (PPI)
Link financial v xxxx (PPI mistated credit)
Phoenix v Kotecha (inception terms/s78)


countycourt/forum
MBNA v McCullagh
Arrow Global v Devlin
HFC Bank Limited v Mrs H
Phoenix Recoveries v Dr C
Cabot Financial UK Limited v Mr and Mrs P
DLC / Hillsden v Mr L

Read more at: Is it safe to contest the CCA? - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum

Added on these two. Any others to add?

Kotecha - Phoenix Recoveries v Kotecha Jan 2010 - Page 2 - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum (COA win for consumer)

Brophy - Brophy v HFC - CCA ''“Your credit limit will be determined by us from time to time.. - Legal Beagles Consumer Forum already on list as a loss but now a COA loss too.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

They could supply a reconstructed version of the CCA with the terms applicable at the time, but they would also have to evidence that you accepted those terms (basically that you had the money) and that you agreed to the PPI (was there complaints made/other paperwork with signature on/claim made/attempted against it).

I do believe in s.61 but common sense prevails in court.

[MattyA]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

I agree with you totally Amethyst,but how can the lack of CCA assist in other 'legitimate' disputes with the lender.
IE relclaiming of unfair charges or mis-sold ppi - both of which would need signed agreements to prove acceptance of terms and conditions or agreement to ppi I assume?
If they dont have or dont intend to submit a copy of the origanal agreement are these arguments also not dead in the water as soon as they get to court?
Sorry if this is a simplistict view or an overly debated point - I am only a beagle puppy.....but trying to catch up fast.
Matty.

[Amethyst]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Cool, nice to see you btw.

I think a number of people will be shouting erosion of protection against fraud and ID theft but personally I think its ball hooks and is just to try keep people hooked on thinking technicalities can get rid of their debts for no reason other than there happen to be technicalities, and many of these purveyors of nonsense will be making a whack off the back of that belief.

Legitimate disputes with actual detriment, entirely different kettle.

[veilside01702]

Re: Is it safe to contest the CCA?

Thanks Amethyst..... I was concerned that things had become twisted and out of hand lately....
It's nice to hear that this cannot be used in the way I thought it could....
Thanks for answering my worries....
Russ