CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

[raaj_s]

Hi,

I have recently heard from Newman & Co that they are pursuing my debt on account of a credit card I held with Amex (British Airways card). The card was taken out in end 2005.

In response to my CCA request, they have sent me two separate documents:
1. A photocopy of the last page only of my original credit card application. This contains no terms and conditions, apart from my name and address, a box stating that this agreement(??) is an agreement under the CCA, and a box which bears my signature and date. There is no corresponding signature from Amex anywhere.
2. A 14-page printout of some prescribed terms and conditions, which I have never seen before and which obviously therefore does not bear my signature in the allocated space, neither does it have any signature from Amex.

I do not have access to a scanner, hence unable to upload, but based on this information (the obvious fact that my signature and the alleged terms and conditions are not in a single document, the T&C's do not bear my signature, and there is no signature of Amex anywhere in either), can someone clarify whether this agreement is CCA compliant? If it is not, what next steps should I take?

[veilside01702]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Hi Raaj_s,
Welcome to Legal Beagles....
To determine if the Agreement is compliant we would need to see a copy of the agreement with all the personal details blanked out... If anyone you know has a scanner and can put the documents on a disc or memory stick for you?
It does sound like the document could be disputed as not an Executed Consumer Credit Agreement that is lacking the legally required terms and format...

I was wondering what you are attempting to achieve with the CCA request?
Did you just not pay the card or was there a dispute that started this off?
If you need help with a payment plan and income and expenditure forms there are lots of people here that can help.

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Hi veilside,

Will see what I can do to have it scanned. Basically, Amex kept increasing the interest year on year radically which made the card immensely unaffordable ultimately. I tried to negotiate a payment plan direct with Amex to pay off the balance and cancel the card, but before I knew it and instead of engaging with me on the negotiation, it got passed to Newman for collection and the interest is still accummulating! This immensely p***ed me off and I am looking to see if I can get my own back by using an invalid CCA to see if I can get this written off.

[Tools]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Hi raaj_s and welcome to Beagles.

The misconception with an invalid CCA is that the debt will be wiped out, this is incorrect. The debt will always remain, but their ability to enforce collection of that debt would be denied unless a court rules otherwise.

Take a look at curlyben's guide to the CCA, after reading that if you are still unsure then as veilside mentioned try post up a scanned copy of the "agreement" they have sent you. From what you have said it does not sound like it will be CCA compliant or indeed enforceable.

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies so far. I have had the DCA on the phone again insisting that what they have sent me constitutes a "true copy" and that the lack of signatures does not invalidate this. Can someone please explain what actually a "true copy" means and how I can communicate this in writing to the DCA?

Thanks!

[MIKE770]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

look to top of page here, go to CCA unenforceable etc ,of Curley Bens, DO NOT TALK TO DCA!s all in writing, okay??

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Hi Mike,

Thanks for the prompt reply. I scanned through Curlyben's guide, but cannot find a reference to what actually constitutes a true copy and whether the lack of signatures is permissible as omitted information. Maybe I am just not reading it right or being thick :tinysmile_cry_t: but could you please help/ post it for me here?

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

was the agreement the same as this one ? amexcard :: Amex01.jpg picture by snapper_bucket - Photobucket

If so keep an eye on Redsnappers amex thread

[Londoneye]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Hi Raaj
Had quite a lot of experience with Amex & Newmans. We have a good few unenforceable amex agreements, normally because the prescribed terms (APR, credit limit, repayment details) are not on the application but on a seperate set of t's & c's. Please look and see what the reference to terms and conditions is. If it states t's & c's anything other than "overleaf" then it is likely to be unenforceable. Even if it does state "overleaf" they need to provide those t's & c's not just a generic set, ie it must be clear that they were on the back of the original document. We have actually had confimation from amex that they no longer have t's & c's from at least one platinum application, 2003 I think. So, you're in quite a good position I reckon.

As for Newmans, very aggressive, but a carefully worded letter should get them to drop you like a hot potato!!

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Amethyst, Londoneye,

Thanks for your replies.

Amethyst, yes, what I have received is exactly the same as Redsnapper's. Just the one page on the link you sent. I tried to search for Redsnapper's thread, but can't seem to find it. Can you post a link to his thread here please?

Londoneye, I took another look at what they sent. There is no reference in either document making reference to the other, so clearly a case for them to prove that they are related :-) The 14 pages of t&c's they sent does not even bear my name or card number anywhere on the document. Also, if at all these are my "prescribed" terms, then they are definitely not the terms from my original application, since I noticed that this document states my annual fees as £150 when in fact my annual fees were £120. Advice on next steps please. In the meantime, is it advisable to make any token payments to Newman or just pursue the line of action to contest them?

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Bump!!! can someone please reply to my queries in my last post above.

Thanks!

[MIKE770]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

bump

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

bump. replies awaited, pls help as Newman are not getting off my back yet.

[MIKE770]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Have you posted copy agreement ? removing personal info, believe Amey has asked you a question regarding this??

[raaj_s]

Re: CCA validity of agreement from Amex/Newman

Update to the situation and need your help and comments please.

Having earlier sent Newman a letter based on Curlyben's format for non-compliant CCA's, they said they would send me a copy of the original T&C's. Now after a period of more than 3 months, they have again sent me only the enclosed, which is the last page of my application. The only references to T&C's on this are the following two sentences:
"By signing below I confirm that I have read, understood and agreed to all the Terms and Conditions which form part of this agreement" and "I understand that the Terms and Conditions form part of this Agreement and that American Express may decline to give me a card at its sole discretion". But they are still unable to supply me any T&C's!

As earlier mentioned, I got into difficulties after Amex kept hiking up their interest rates quite heftily and unilaterally year on year which eventually made the debt unaffordable and I started missing payments. I then wrote to Amex asking that I believed the interest rate hikes to be unjust and unfair and it was this variation which was causing me not to be able to service the debt. I asked that the card be cancelled and a payment plan agreed, at which point Amex promptly set Newman on me without adequately engaging in any dialogue with me (I just got passed from one call centre to another with no resolution).

I have been asking Newman for the T&C's on the basis that I might be able to prove that an unfair relationship exists which has led to the current situation, based on the fact that the interest rates are hugely different to what I had originally signed on for and that a major component of the debt are high interest rates and fees.

It seems clear that Amex do not have the original T&C's or are unwilling to share them with me.

What I am trying to achieve here is to get Amex to agree that the original T&C's do not exist and that the agreement itself is non-enforceable and non-compliant. Based on this, even though I do not have to, I am happy to agree a reasonable reduction in the overall debt and a reasonable monthly payment plan. I currently make token payments to Newman to demonstrate my desire to resolve the issue and prove that this is not debt avoidance tactics.

Could someone advise if my reading of the situation and my expectations are reasonable and correct? If so, can someone help me draft a suitable letter to close this out? Also, should I send this letter to both Amex and Newman?