CCA question - total charge for credit

[Amethyst]

and payment protection insurance.

Now where PPI is NOT a condition of the loan should the interest payable on the PPI loan be included in the 'total charge for credit' ?

They should be treated as two seperate loans - one for the Loan, with the total charge for credit being the interest payable on that loan (and other fees conditonally to receive the loan) - and one for the OPTIONAL PPI with the total charge for credit being the interest payable on the PPI loan. They can then be totalled together elsewhere but should be stated on the agreement in their entirety seperately so the consumer can see how much the actual loan charge for credit is without the PPI.

Is that right?

Also if the interest on the OPTIONAL PPI is included in the Total charge for credit (even if the PPI amount and the loan amount are stated seperately) - that then makes the agreement unenforceable?


Oh and an interesting OFT doc I came across http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/rep...dit/oft299.pdf

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

in order.

No, never even if optional. PPI is NEVER a condition of a loan. Massive misselling there.
Yes, basically s18 CCA restricted use credit.
Hmmm does cause problems. See Wilson V Hurstanger
Really depends on the date of the loan 74 v 06

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

thought so and yes thinking pre 07 jobbies.

okay whats the issue with this in hurstanger ? (not being too lazy you understand)

also look at Natties Natwest agreement for £700 Peeky just posted....is the £38 PPI a one off up front payment or is the interest on it included in the total charge for credit....

also the one we looked at yesterday ..... Natwest loan - Legal Beagles

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

H v W covers PPI and additional amounts added to agreements, as well as hidden commission payments.
All BIG naughties..

Natties is for toffee
Total non compliance. i can't believe that they charge staff PPI !!!!!

Oh yes I see now.Hmm difficult as the PPI cost is stated separately, but not the principle. The above comment is a goody here. They obviously didn't reschedule when the PPI was cancelled as they should of done !!

Both scans are a little difficult to read though.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

Rightio then....another question Tools asked me y;day and i couldnt answer

completed agreements....that are paid off etc

find the agreement was unenforceable - if you were so morally inclined - theoretically - could you now go back and reclaim what you had paid under said agreement ?

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

Remember this isn't a moral question, but a legal one.
Honestly it's your choice, but in theory, yes.

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

yep have come round to the screw them they had 30 years to sort it out and didnt bother their arses way of thinking.....

now if you paid off an unenforceable by consolidating it into an enforceable the same applies?

I know this really just getting things straight in my head

Thanks Curly :kiss:

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

now if you paid off an unenforceable by consolidating it into an enforceable the same applies?

Now that's where it gets really difficult, but not impossible.
In fact that's what I'm working on with HFC

[Tools]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

Example...........

Mr Smith opens a credit card with Might Be Naughty Agreement (see what i did there lol) credit cards. Runs the balance up to say £10k. Pays it off with a bank loan from Porkshire Bank. Can the banl loan be chased?

[Tools]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

Now that's where it gets really difficult, but not impossible.
In fact that's what I'm working on with HFC

Are we talking Mistake of Law?
Bell v Lever Brothers
Solle v Butcher

etc?

[ed.]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

The problem with going back on closed agreements is it seems to my knowledge that enforceable or not when live, most DJ's will view it as a closed account and therefore the CCA provisions no longer. Wilson v FCT ceases to apply in some ways because Wilson didn't pay a penny at all.

It all hinges on whether the DJ takes the view it should never have been enforced, and therefore via deception payments were a mistake of law or not.

Unless I'm missing something here aswell the new unfair provisions of the 06 Act don't apply, because they are only wholly retrospective now for agreements still live I think.

I'm with Curly on this one, there are good legal arguments but it's by no means straightforward when an account is closed - I've not seen direct caselaw for closed accounts anywhere - but it strikes me as one of those that if you argued it infront of 10 DJ's, you'd get 10 different Judgments lol

[Curlyben]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

Example...........

Mr Smith opens a credit card with Might Be Naughty Agreement (see what i did there lol) credit cards. Runs the balance up to say £10k. Pays it off with a bank loan from Porkshire Bank. Can the banl loan be chased?

Not in that case. You could challenge the card, but, assuming the loan complies then no.

Are we talking Mistake of Law?
Bell v Lever Brothers
Solle v Butcher

etc?

Yes, a restitutionary claim
Already discussed in VIP..

The problem with going back on closed agreements is it seems to my knowledge that enforceable or not when live, most DJ's will view it as a closed account and therefore the CCA provisions no longer. Wilson v FCT ceases to apply in some ways because Wilson didn't pay a penny at all.

It all hinges on whether the DJ takes the view it should never have been enforced, and therefore via deception payments were a mistake of law or not.

Unless I'm missing something here aswell the new unfair provisions of the 06 Act don't apply, because they are only wholly retrospective now for agreements still live I think.

I'm with Curly on this one, there are good legal arguments but it's by no means straightforward when an account is closed - I've not seen direct caselaw for closed accounts anywhere - but it strikes me as one of those that if you argued it infront of 10 DJ's, you'd get 10 different Judgments lol

The only way you can really go back to closed agreements is under a clear mistake with a series of consolidation loans from the same bank.
As in my case the final loan appears to comply, but there's been issues with how that figure was arrived at due to incorrect settlement of previous loans. Hence invalidating the final loan and opening up the previous, closed, accounts for scrutiny..
In this case I'm not talking simple addition of charges, but something alot more involved and potentially underhand.

[Var]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

If an agreement is closed and the account has been settled, it is still possible to recover monies from the provider if a breach can be proved, e.g an undisclosed commission paid to a broker.

This is different to having an agreement ruled as unenforceable, bear in mind that there is no point trying to have the agreement ruled as unenforceble if its settled and there is no balance to enforce.

bear in mind that writing a loan off and deaming it unenforceable are two different things

[Glenn UK]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

Are we talking Mistake of Law?
Bell v Lever Brothers
Solle v Butcher

etc?

There is i believe precedent to make payments made under a mistake, whether its one of law or fact, are always recoverable.

I cant remember the case of the top of my head, but it is fairly recent (say last 3-5 years) and I'm sure it involved overpayment's to the inland revenue, so could be Klienwort/Benson vs IR.

If you don't have this and want me to look it out ill see what i can find.

Glenn

[Amethyst]

Re: CCA question - total charge for credit

http://www.publications.parliament.u...29/klein01.htm

that one