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BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

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  • BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

    Are banks set to capitulate over fees?


    Analysis
    By Ian Pollock
    Personal finance reporter, BBC News



    Some customers will pay less for their overdrafts


    The UK's banks have spent more than two years asserting vehemently that their overdraft fees were fair and just. Now the dam seems to have burst.
    One of them, Barclays, has slashed its overdraft charges to just £8.
    This is even less than the £12 default fee which all banks were forced to accept for their credit card customers in 2006.
    Campaigners and consumers groups claim that Barclays' change threatens to undermine the defence of the entire banking industry in the forthcoming High Court hearing over the fairness of its charges.
    The Office of Fair Trading (OFT), which has been challenging the banks over their fees, is not making any comment on this latest development.
    But it must be fascinated by this turn of events.
    One of the leading campaigners against bank charges, Marc Gander of the Consumer Action Group, was not so reticent.
    "This move by Barclays dishes their own case," he said.
    "Maybe they hope the whole issue will be dropped by the OFT."
    And Chris Warner, a lawyer at the consumers' association Which?, said: "This does seem to be an admission by Barclays that its current unauthorised overdraft charges are unfair and that instead, a fee of £8 would be reflect its costs and so be a much fairer price."

    Adverse ruling
    Barclays says all this has nothing to do with the continuing litigation and that it has simply responded to its customers' needs.

    This does seem to be an admission by Barclays that its current unauthorised overdraft charges are unfair and that instead, a fee of £8 would be reflect its costs and so be a much fairer price


    Chris Warner, Which?


    Specifically, the complaints of those who felt they were being clobbered unjustly if they went into the red briefly, or by accident, for instance, just before a salary cheque was due to arrive.
    But despite claims to the contrary by Barclays, it is obvious that its new fee structure for overdrafts is in anticipation of an adverse ruling in the courts.
    In April, Mr Justice Andrew Smith ruled that under consumer contract regulations, the OFT had the right to decide if bank overdraft charges were fair or not.
    The banks are going to appeal against this in the Appeal Court.
    But last week, the judge also prodded both sides into agreeing that another hearing, directly on the issue of fairness itself, should start before the end of this year, unless both the OFT and the banks could agree a deal before then.
    Clearly the banks, or at least Barclays, have seen which way the wind is blowing.
    The chances must be high that others, such as Lloyds-TSB, RBS-NatWest and HSBC, will copy it in some form or another.
    What then?
    This would surely lay the ground for the banks and the OFT to decide that further arm-wrestling in the courts about the current overdraft charges was a waste of time.
    Mr Justice Smith will still have to make some vital rulings


    But it would not settle the matter entirely.
    In July, both sides pitch up before Mr Justice Andrew Smith again.
    This time, it will be to argue whether the overdraft charges levied in the past, under old terms and conditions, can also be challenged by the OFT.
    How will the banks defend the validity of their past charges if they now have a new set of fees which they say are fairer and better?
    It is worth remembering that tens of thousands of claims are currently in suspense in the county courts and at the Financial Ombudsman Service until the whole issue is resolved.
    And billions of pounds of potential new claims for the refund of overdraft charges could emerge if the banks eventually lose their argument on the fairness of their old terms and conditions.
    Yet in most cases, where the banks have submitted written defences to county court claims, they argued explicitly that their charges were a fair and accurate reflection of the real cost of bouncing a cheque, plus the cost of writing a letter to customers telling them about it.
    That argument will be hard to sustain if those very same charges have now been slashed, under the guise of being more responsive to customers' needs.

    Charging for accounts
    Barclays' new fee structure does not mean that going into the red without permission now carries a relatively negligible cost.
    The High Court, scene of the battle between the banks and the OFT


    Someone who does this once a month will now be charged £22 for using the new "personal reserve", whereas the cost might previously have been £30 or £35 a go, depending on whether the cheque was paid or bounced.
    Someone who gets lots of cheques bounced in one day may also now be charged up to a maximum of £40 instead of £35.
    But the underlying theme of the Barclays changes is not just to do with overdraft fees.
    It is also about revamping the whole structure of its current accounts, by encouraging customers to opt for ones that carry a simple monthly fee.
    Many banks have, in the past year or so, brought in such accounts with monthly fees, often touted as a luxury option, with frills such as insurance.
    But Barclays now has an optional new current account, dubbed "current account plus", which offers a £300 interest-free overdraft for just £3 a month.
    That would be cheaper to use than occasionally dipping into a "personal reserve". Many commentators have said this is the way that UK banking would go if high overdraft fees were restricted - back to the days of charging customers for having an ordinary account. It is happening right now.

  • #2
    Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

    Excellent article by Ian Pollock

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

      I don't think it's that good, Budgie, as it takes until the final paragraph to mention the £22 fee and makes out, in the first paragraph, that it's a straightforward reduction in overdraft fees.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

        Originally posted by argentarius View Post
        I don't think it's that good, Budgie, as it takes until the final paragraph to mention the £22 fee and makes out, in the first paragraph, that it's a straightforward reduction in overdraft fees.

        Have you read my posts in the thread regarding the Barclays changes?

        If a Customer decides to opt out of the Barclays personal reserve scheme then it currently appears that the only charge they would be levied if they were to present items for payment for which they had insufficient funds would be the £8 charge for each such item presented. Plus interest on any resulting overdraft due to the charges of course ( at a rate which isnt yet clear ).

        It was on that basis that I made my comment regarding the BBC report.

        Effectively, in certain circumstances, the Barclays revsions may therefore be considered as a straight forward reduction in overdraft fees.

        To be honest I am perfectly happy for Barclays to continue to argue matters that way because it makes the points that Ian Pollock makes extremely relevent.

        Budgie

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

          Without the personal reserve being offered/accepted/used in any way shape or form then this is a huge reduction of unauthorised transaction fees and is great news. IMO.
          #staysafestayhome

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          Comment


          • #6
            Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

            Someone who gets lots of cheques bounced in one day may also now be charged up to a maximum of £40 instead of £35.
            That's a bit misleading. It implies that currently, the maximum per day would be £35. When we all know that it's £35 per failed transaction (or £38 in my case with the RBS). Then a further £35 or so for actually being in the red.

            So for 5 failed transactions, as per their example, it's NOT £35. It actually £175. From which most people couldn't possibly recover, and so snowballs.

            If it turns out that the opt out actually is just £8 per failed transaction to a max of 5 transactions a day, that alone seems to make this fair. Well, fairer. Assuming of course, they don't really mean that they will hit you for £8 a day per transaction until you are back in the black? Surely they don't mean that? Nah, I'm just being paranoid there.
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            Comment


            • #7
              Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

              So for 5 failed transactions, as per their example, it's NOT £35. It actually £175. From which most people couldn't possibly recover, and so snowballs.

              they were only charging for a maximum of three transactions a day previously so 5 failed would be the max £105 - and 5 failed the new way is £40.

              also if you have the personal reserve 5 failed would now be (depending on the value) become 3 paid, 2 failed and cost you £38 if you pay the money back in within 5 days. £60 if you pay the money back in within 10 days. £82 if you pay it back in within 15 days. £104 within 20 days. etc etc PLUS you have three less charges from your suppliers because they got paid whereas before they wouldn't.

              So if you pay back in within 20 days you are better off.

              Yes?


              And no I don't see any mention of a daily fee - the £8 is FAILED or GUARANTEED payments.
              #staysafestayhome

              Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

              Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

                I think we need to get clarification first from Barclays that if you opt out of the "Personal Reserve" scheme that the charges will be £8 and not what they already are of £35. Also what interest rate is applicable to the charges also if you don't opt for the personal reserve and get a charge.

                When this is clear we will have a better understanding of how this will effect customers.

                The other point we need to consider is the criteria for having one of these accounts.

                JMO

                Tanz

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

                  Budgie tried to get this clarification yesterday - see the other thread. As far as the call centres are aware opting out of PR does leave you with £8 unpaid transaction fees as opposed to £39/35 whatever they are now.

                  Not sure what the unauthorised interest rate is. think the authorised is 17.9 - in line with Natwest and lower than some others.

                  the Criteria will be the biggy.
                  #staysafestayhome

                  Any support I provide is offered without liability, if you are unsure please seek professional legal guidance.

                  Received a Court Claim? Read >>>>> First Steps

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

                    Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                    Not sure what the unauthorised interest rate is. think the authorised is 17.9 - in line with Natwest and lower than some others..
                    Barclays says it is reaffirming its commitment to keep free in-credit banking as an option for customers – but from 2nd June the bank’s overdraft rate will increase from 15.6 per cent to 17.9 per cent, and from 1st July, credit interest on current accounts will no longer be paid unless the customer signs up for a pay-monthly account.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

                      Originally posted by Amethyst View Post
                      Budgie tried to get this clarification yesterday - see the other thread. As far as the call centres are aware opting out of PR does leave you with £8 unpaid transaction fees as opposed to £39/35 whatever they are now.

                      Not sure what the unauthorised interest rate is. think the authorised is 17.9 - in line with Natwest and lower than some others.

                      the Criteria will be the biggy.
                      Hi Amethyst,

                      Yes I read Budgies post, however what I am unclear about is if Barclays are saying that this is not a knee jerk reaction due to the test case and they have been considering this for some time in response to customers concerns why was it not until yesterday morning that the CS teams at Barclays were issued the guidance? This is an unrealistic thing for them to state as well as that the branches also didn't get the guidance until yesterday.

                      I really cant see this being the case.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: BBC Article "Are banks set to capitulate over fees"

                        Originally posted by TANZARELLI View Post
                        Hi Amethyst,

                        Yes I read Budgies post, however what I am unclear about is if Barclays are saying that this is not a knee jerk reaction due to the test case and they have been considering this for some time in response to customers concerns why was it not until yesterday morning that the CS teams at Barclays were issued the guidance? This is an unrealistic thing for them to state as well as that the branches also didn't get the guidance until yesterday.

                        I really cant see this being the case.
                        Of course it is a knee jerk reaction Tanzarelli.

                        OK, they may have been planning something like this for a couple of years but I seriously don't think they intended to launch it quite as quickly if at all.

                        Events in the Test Case have forced this move. Barclays were one of the four Banks who were not given a clean bill of health regarding their current terms and conditions with respect to PIL. They are running scared at the moment and IMO this is a breaking ranks move against the other Banks.
                        I am 100% certain if things had gone better for them in the initial Test Case judgment that they would not be implementing these changes at the present time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Budgie View Post
                          Have you read my posts in the thread regarding the Barclays changes?

                          If a Customer decides to opt out of the Barclays personal reserve scheme then it currently appears that the only charge they would be levied if they were to present items for payment for which they had insufficient funds would be the £8 charge for each such item presented. Plus interest on any resulting overdraft due to the charges of course ( at a rate which isnt yet clear ).

                          It was on that basis that I made my comment regarding the BBC report.

                          Effectively, in certain circumstances, the Barclays revsions may therefore be considered as a straight forward reduction in overdraft fees.

                          To be honest I am perfectly happy for Barclays to continue to argue matters that way because it makes the points that Ian Pollock makes extremely relevent.

                          Budgie
                          I have indeed read your comments, and I expect you've read mine. I also agree that this is, in general, a good thing and a reduction in charges and find the views of those who think it's all a means of charging customers more rather unrealistic. In most circumstances, most customers will pay less.

                          But the reality is that many people reading articles like Ian Pollock's won't get to the last paragraph and they'll just walk away thinking their total charges are reducing from £35 to £8. Which is way off the truth for the majority who will not opt out of Personal Reserve.
                          Last edited by argentarius; 30th May 2008, 09:39:AM.

                          Comment

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