Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

[Amy]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Get Curly's letter from the PM sent off for a start and see what, if anything, they come back with.

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Thank you Amy.

To confirm this letter is OK based on my own POC's is it ?

What about the issue of my Wife - can I represent to avoid her attending court ?

Thank you so very much.

[Amy]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

To confirm this letter is OK based on my own POC's is it ?

Yes, if it's the letter demanding information on which the claim is based - send it.

What about the issue of my Wife - can I represent to avoid her attending court ?

We'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it.

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Thanks Amy,

I'll get this sorted out today.

A couple of questions though, if I may please.

Curlyben referef to to dates (**DATE**), in the first paragraph.

Theses are, as follows (quote):

"This letter supersedes the Data Protection request made to on the **DATE**. The information must be furnished by the **DATE**, which gives you ten days to provide what has been requested. "

I'm not sure what the data protection request referes to so do I just leave this sentence out ?

The furnished by date - what do I enter here - the Court Claim is datd 6th and was rcvd. by me on the 11th ? Unsure when the 10 days is from and whether its working days or includes weekends ?

As soon as I hear back I'll get my acknowledgement of service sorted.

BIG thanks,

R

[Curlyben]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Just edit the letter as needed.
TBH there's a better letter for this covered by CPR 31.14
DCA: Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage - Consumer Wiki

What's the dates we're looking at here ?
Date of service of the claim ??

Acknowledgement needs to be within 14 days of service and defence a further 14 days after AoS

Honestly this should be stayed pending the outcome of the test case as you have some charges to reclaim, as per FSA guidelines..

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Hi Curlyben and thanks for your input.

You have, personally, been of great help to me (elsewhere !), in the past ! I'm delighted to find you, again, here !

The Court Claim letter is dated 6th Nov.

This was received on 11th Nov.

I've filed acknowledgement of service, on-line, today (12th)

Do you think this will be stayed ?

I know you're an expert on DCA's but have you any experience of Irwin Mitchell ?

I'm so grateful for everyones help and will attempt to get my CPR off today - hopefully with a little help from my friends !

I'll check the link you just suggested CB - you recommend this letter then as opposed to the link Amy gave me to your other (superb) composition ?

Thanks again,

R

[Budgie]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Hi RB1968

Have been discussing this off line with Curly.

Yes, go with Curly's linked recommended letter ( CPR 31.14 ) DCA: Using CPR 31.14 to Your Advantage - Consumer Wiki

Get that done today and we can then work on defence to the claim ( in case it becomes necessary ) on the basis that debt is comprised mainly of charges for which you have an outstanding county court claim. We will request that claim against you is linked to your charges claim and stayed pending outcome of test case.

Budgie

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Many thanks Budgie / CB but I feel I must clarify:

Debt isn't mainly comprised of charges. Charges are approx. £1000 of the approx. £4500 Claim !

I don't have an outstanding County Court Claim for the charges - I have simply issued the claim to Natwest and have had their acknowledgement letter back.

I hope this doesn't make my case harder to defend ?

Kindest regards,

R
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
PS I should add that the only charges I have claimed for are as detailed in Moneysavingexpert.com's spreadsheet / advise (inc. a miminal amount of interest on specific charges). I would say a huge amount of this debt comprises of interest incurred which hasn't been claimed for.

Furthermore Natwest were hounded by me, for ages, in an attempt to get all interset and charges frozen due to financial difficulties / redundancy AND several weeks of 'doctor substantiated' illness, due to fatigue / stress. They refused, point blank, to freeze any charges and interest - this reselted in my reluctance to make any token payments at all !

Thanks,

R

[Budgie]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

OK,

Because you said this I assumed you had started a court claim.

"(At this point I’d like to add I issued a claim for approx. £800 of unfair bank charges, in early 2008 AND superseded this with an additional approx. £200 claim (thus making just over £1000, in total) in the middle part of this year (2009). This remains on hold !)"

Its not a problem, your defence to Irwin Mitchell's claim will now therefore be in the form of a counter claim for return of charges applied to the account. As the charges matter cannot be resolved until the test case is resolved then it is impossible to determine exactly what Nat West / Irwin Mitchel should be claiming from you, if anything. You will therefore request a stay in all proceedings until the test case has been resolved.

I propose that we prepare a spreadsheet detailing all charges applied to the account and suggest we calculate interest either using statutory court interest at 8% PA or by using a compound interest rate similar to that applied to your overdraft. We will see how the figures work out and then make a decision at that stage as to which interest method to use for the counterclaim.

I have a couple of additional questions.

1) Are you and your wife still using this account or has it remained dormant, with just interest and charges continuing to be applied by Nat West?

2) You seem very keen to keep your wife out of this matter. Is she actually aware of what is happening or are you trying to keep matters from her?

3) Do you have written evidence to support your arguments that you have attempted to get interest / charges frozen in the past. Also, do you consider yourselves to still be undergoing financial hardship.

These are all things that we need to take into account for your counterclaim.

Rgds Budgie

Many thanks Budgie / CB but I feel I must clarify:

Debt isn't mainly comprised of charges. Charges are approx. £1000 of the approx. £4500 Claim !

I don't have an outstanding County Court Claim for the charges - I have simply issued the claim to Natwest and have had their acknowledgement letter back.

I hope this doesn't make my case harder to defend ?

Kindest regards,

R
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
PS I should add that the only charges I have claimed for are as detailed in Moneysavingexpert.com's spreadsheet / advise (inc. a miminal amount of interest on specific charges). I would say a huge amount of this debt comprises of interest incurred which hasn't been claimed for.

Furthermore Natwest were hounded by me, for ages, in an attempt to get all interset and charges frozen due to financial difficulties / redundancy AND several weeks of 'doctor substantiated' illness, due to fatigue / stress. They refused, point blank, to freeze any charges and interest - this reselted in my reluctance to make any token payments at all !

Thanks,

R

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

By agreement(s) entered into between the
Claimant and Defendant, the Defendant has
failed to pay the sum of 4***.**. The Claiman
t has requested payment but the Defendant h
as failed to pay the full sum demanded. The
Claimant claims the sum of 4***.** and in
terest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1
984 at a rate of 8% per annum from 05/11/2009
until judgment or sooner payment. Costs. The
claim does not include issues under the H
uman Rights Act 1998. The Claimant has compli
ed with Sections III and IV of Practic
e Direction - Pre-Action Conduct of the Civi
l Procedure Rules.

I'm just drafting my CPR based on the link / letter, last mentioned.

My EXACT particulars of claim are shown above.

Which documents listed in the letter am I actually requesting as the letter says to delete as applicable - am I just asking for a copy of the agreement (for an overdraft ?) or also the assignment, default notice, termination notice and / or anything else ? Sory to appear so dim !

Budgie - re. your last message I'll reply in a minute.

Thanks,

R
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
OK Budgie. Thanks for your message and sorry for my delayed reply, this time.

I have a copy of the excel spreadsheet / claim, as per monetsavingexpert template and as sent to natwest - would you like to see this ?

My wife and I haven't used this account for ages so they've just continued adding fees and interest.

My wife is aware of the claim but she's not au fait with this / household financial matters as I deal with all these. She wants me to deal with this and would, I'm sure, freeze up and be horrified at the thought of a court appearance ! we have no secrets !

I have, of course, retained copies of ALL letters sent to Natwest including those (9using Citizens Advise Bureaux templates) requesting interset / charges being frozen, due to financial hardship. I'm sure I also have natwest replies sating NO to my requests !

Financial hardship now ? Put it like this I'm now working part time and my income is approx. 1/3 of what it was prior to redundancy earlier this year. Wife works on a self employed basis, part time, and earning fall under tax threshold. Wifes earnings can be substantiated by copies of tax returns, as submitted in April of each year ! These are 100% accurate and legitimate and furthermore all are supported by Inland Revenue replies confirming 'nothing to pay' !

Hope this info. all helps further.

BIG thankyou,

R

PS Off-line until mid-eveing now, unfortunately BUT am 1/2 way through my CPR letter - this will have to go tomorrow (fri) now, I guess ?

Ta,

R

[Budgie]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

COMMENTS IN RED BELOW

By agreement(s) entered into between the
Claimant and Defendant, the Defendant has
failed to pay the sum of 4***.**. The Claiman
t has requested payment but the Defendant h
as failed to pay the full sum demanded. The
Claimant claims the sum of 4***.** and in
terest under s.69 of the County Courts Act 1
984 at a rate of 8% per annum from 05/11/2009
until judgment or sooner payment. Costs. The
claim does not include issues under the H
uman Rights Act 1998. The Claimant has compli
ed with Sections III and IV of Practic
e Direction - Pre-Action Conduct of the Civi
l Procedure Rules.

I'm just drafting my CPR based on the link / letter, last mentioned.

My EXACT particulars of claim are shown above.

Which documents listed in the letter am I actually requesting as the letter says to delete as applicable - am I just asking for a copy of the agreement YES (for an overdraft ?) or also the assignment YES, default notice YES, termination notice YES and / or anything else YES - ANYTHING ELSE UPON WHICH THEY WILL RELY ? Sory to appear so dim !

Budgie - re. your last message I'll reply in a minute.

Thanks,

R
------------------------------- merged -------------------------------
OK Budgie. Thanks for your message and sorry for my delayed reply, this time.

I have a copy of the excel spreadsheet / claim, as per monetsavingexpert template and as sent to natwest - would you like to see this ? YES PLEASE - CAN YOU POST UP ON THREAD - REMOVE PERSONAL INFO FIRST

My wife and I haven't used this account for ages so they've just continued adding fees and interest. OK THAT's GOOD

My wife is aware of the claim but she's not au fait with this / household financial matters as I deal with all these. She wants me to deal with this and would, I'm sure, freeze up and be horrified at the thought of a court appearance ! we have no secrets ! BRILLIANT WAS JUST A BIT WORRIED THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE THAT SORT OF PROBLEM TO DEAL WITH AS WELL

I have, of course, retained copies of ALL letters sent to Natwest including those (9using Citizens Advise Bureaux templates) requesting interset / charges being frozen, due to financial hardship. I'm sure I also have natwest replies sating NO to my requests ! GOOD STUFF - HANG ON TO THESE FOR THE MOMENT - NO NEED TO POST UP YET

Financial hardship now ? Put it like this I'm now working part time and my income is approx. 1/3 of what it was prior to redundancy earlier this year. Wife works on a self employed basis, part time, and earning fall under tax threshold. Wifes earnings can be substantiated by copies of tax returns, as submitted in April of each year ! These are 100% accurate and legitimate and furthermore all are supported by Inland Revenue replies confirming 'nothing to pay' ! OK - LETS TAKE THINGS A STEP AT A TIME BUT IT MAY WELL BE THAT WE CAN MAKE OUT A COUNTER CLAIM FOR YOU BASED NOT JUST ON THE CHARGES THEMSELVES BUT ALSO ON FINANCIAL HARDSHIP ISSUES - WILL GET YOU TO FILL IN AN INCOME / EXPENDITURE FORM LATER

Hope this info. all helps further.

BIG thankyou,

R

PS Off-line until mid-eveing now, unfortunately BUT am 1/2 way through my CPR letter - this will have to go tomorrow (fri) now, I guess ?

Ta,

R

CONCENTRATE ON GETTING LETTER SORTED FIRST, POST UP SPREADSHEET WHEN YOU CAN AND WE WILL TAKE STOCK AND REGROUP. I AM OUT TILL LATE THIS EVENING BUT CAN PICK UP TOMORROW.

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Thanks Budgie and again, sorry if I seem dim but I'm still not sure about this part of the CPR letter:


Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:
1 The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.
2 The assignment*
3 The default notice*
4 The termination notice*
5 [any other documents mentioned in the Particulars of Claim]*
* delete if not mentioned in the Particulars of claim.


Please see my particulars of claim, as above in thread.

You've suggested I request all of these documents as shown above, in this post, BUT according to the CPR letter / delete if not mentioned surely the wording means I should be asking for the agreement only - this is the only item referred to in the POC isn't it ?

Sorry but I thought I was reasonably intelligent until this all sprung up ! I'm fast losing the plot !

I'm sure I'll feel better if I get this letter off, in the morning ?

With regard to my spreadsheet - I'm a little uncomfortable posting this document on here even with the personal details taken off - can this be PM'ed ? If not then I can perhaps (reluctantly !) post on here BUT unsure how ?

Many, many thanks,

R

[Amy]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

RB just request all of it. Anything and everything.

[Budgie]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

As Amy has suggested request all of the relevent documents.

Maybe word this part of the letter as follows :-

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the following document mentioned in your Particulars of Claim or upon which you intend to rely on as part of your claim :

1 The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.
2 The assignment
3 The default notice
4 The termination notice





With regard to my spreadsheet - I'm a little uncomfortable posting this document on here even with the personal details taken off - can this be PM'ed ? If not then I can perhaps (reluctantly !) post on here BUT unsure how ?

Please feel free to email it to me ( I will PM you my email address ) I will not post it up on the thread but will post up some comments / suggestions.

[R B 1968]

Re: Court Claim Help Please - Natwest / Irwin Mitchell

Thanks Amy & Budgie.

Here's my final CPR letter, now ready to go (quote):

Irwin Mitchell LLP,
Bauhaus,
Rossetti Place,
27 Quay Street,
Manchester,
M3 4AW

13th November 2009

Dear Sir,

Re: National Westminster Bank plc v ******************** Claim No: ********
CPR 31.14 Request
On 11th November 2009 I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton (CCBC) County Court.
I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest all of your claim.
Prior to the issue of proceedings I had delivered a request, dated **** October 2009, for the production of the agreement mentioned in the Claim Form and on which you rely. That request was ignored.
Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of each of the followingdocument mentioned in your Particulars of Claim or upon which you intend to rely on as part of your claim :
1 The agreement. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.
2 The assignment
3 The default notice
4 The termination notice
Although your claim is for a sum which is not more than £5,000.00 and will in all likelihood be allocated to the small claims track for determination upon my delivering a defence, at this moment in time I have not delivered my defence and the case has not been allocated to a track. In consequence the provisions of CPR 27(2) are of no effect and you should not seek to avoid compliance with your CPR 31 duties by claiming otherwise.
You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are copied to and received by me within 7 days of receiving this letter. Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy. Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.
Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.
In accordance with CPR 31.15(c) I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.
If you require more time in which to comply with this request you must tell me in writing. You must tell me before the time for compliance with this request has expired. In telling me you require more time you must tell me what steps you have taken and propose to take in order to comply with this request and also state a date by when you will comply with this request. In addition your statement must be accompanied with a statement that you agree to an extension of the time for me to file my defence. Your extension of time must be not less than 14 days from the date when you say you will have complied with my request and you must state the new date for filing my defence.
If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request you must tell me in writing.
Please note that if you should fail to comply with this request, fail to request more time or fail to agree to an extension of time for the filing of my defence, I will make an application to the court for an order that the proceedings be struck out or stayed for non-compliance and a summary costs order.
I do hope this will not be necessary and look forward to hearing from you.
Yours faithfully

If you're happy with this (based on the POC's I've posted, yesterday, then I'll send, by Special Delivery this morning ?

I've actually added in the date of my previous CCA request - is this OK or should I ddelete it ?

Am I correct to send this to Irwin Mitchell NOT the courts ?

Am I correct to send Special Delivery ?

Am I OK sending on a Friday - which means Saturday delivery ?

Do I need to send a copy to the courts ?

Finally and most importantly do we sign this letter or not ? I've read many posts which say never use your signature (BUT in CCA cases) - what about in these type of situations ?

Thanks again and reest assured this will be sent as soon as I hear back from you ?

Kind regards,

R

PS Once this stage is completed I'll sort a copy of the spreadsheet, as requested. Thanks again.