The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

[Amethyst]

Re: To whom it may concern....i.e. everybody on this forum

I will merge then instead of changing title (done)

[Milo]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

The Civil Procedure Rules changes are here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2.../contents/made

Sorry, I have edited this post of mine.

The above Civil Procedure Rules do NOT in fact relate to this particular new regulation (regarding certification and complaints). They are nonetheless of vital importance and I intend to refer to them in the right thread.

However, the poster (NotPaying) has truly not only 'made my day" by finding this link but may well have 'made my year"

I will explain more in a separate thread (regarding the dreadful "Interpleader" applications).

Once again...thank you.

[Milo]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

Can I just say a big thank you to Sir Vere for highlighting this third Statutory regulation regarding the new bailiff certification procedure that will take effect in just over one months time (6th April).....

[Amethyst]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

They slipped it in very quietly and quickly didn't they.

Was mentioned in 27th report of the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee

Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2013(SI 2014/1)

35. Our 13th Report of this session drew attention to the first set of regulations needed to set up the new system of bailiffs.[13] This second instrument sets out a schedule of standardised fees for enforcement services and how these will be recovered from the debtor. The Ministry of Justice states that the intention is to set fixed fees that will be consistent, based on the reasonable cost of certain enforcement activities, and easy for the debtor to check but also represent a reasonable return for the enforcement agent (thus discouraging an enforcement agent from hasty action to seize goods to recoup his costs). A third set of regulations, to be laid shortly, will set out the certification process for enforcement agents. The new system is due to come into force in April 2014.

[Amethyst]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

This might be of interest if you don't have it already

3.2 Training packages focusing on vulnerability issues have been developed by, amongst
others, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Money Advice Trust in consultation
with the Civil Enforcement Association to support applicants for certificates. These
packages include training focusing on how enforcement agents should deal with
individuals who may be vulnerable. They offer an in depth face-to-face course where
trainees can practice different strategies for dealing with vulnerable individuals when
recovering debt. This will be preceded by an introductory e-learning course which focuses
on raising awareness of mental health.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0140421_en.pdf

13. Contact
13. 1 Louise Langston at the Ministry of Justice (Tel: 0203 334 4201 or email:
louise.langston@justice.gsi.gov.uk) can answer any queries regarding the instrument.

[bluebottle]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

This might be of interest if you don't have it already

3.2 Training packages focusing on vulnerability issues have been developed by, amongst
others, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Money Advice Trust in consultation
with the Civil Enforcement Association to support applicants for certificates. These
packages include training focusing on how enforcement agents should deal with
individuals who may be vulnerable. They offer an in depth face-to-face course where
trainees can practice different strategies for dealing with vulnerable individuals when
recovering debt. This will be preceded by an introductory e-learning course which focuses
on raising awareness of mental health.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...0140421_en.pdf

13. Contact
13. 1 Louise Langston at the Ministry of Justice (Tel: 0203 334 4201 or email:
louise.langston@justice.gsi.gov.uk) can answer any queries regarding the instrument.

Will these courses also involve bailiffs being checked for personality disorders and whether they are psychotic? This is not me being funny, but deadly serious. The way some bailiffs behave, it does raise serious questions as to whether they are safe to be let loose on the public, especially those who are vulnerable.

[Milo]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

Thank you Amethyst. I had seen the Memorandum.

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

Will these courses also involve bailiffs being checked for personality disorders and whether they are psychotic? This is not me being funny, but deadly serious. The way some bailiffs behave, it does raise serious questions as to whether they are safe to be let loose on the public, especially those who are vulnerable.

You ae not joking, although not strictly required because of who I work for, I decided, with my employers blessing (read £10,000 bond) I went to Court to be certified ..... I mean certificated, and yes I have met some of the Certificated individuals and yes, they should be certified.

Not all, but a sizeable number are either delusional or have complexes or (the really bad ones) both.

It is true that an enforcement officer/agent can not be arrested for causing a breach of the peace by conducting his/her lawful business, but some of the guys and gals I've met, make it a point of rubbing the defendants/defaulters the wrong way, and that is (in my book) a NONO!

[bizzybob]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

@ Sir Vere "It is true that an enforcement officer/agent can not be arrested for causing a breach of the peace by conducting his/her lawful business, but some of the guys and gals I've met, make it a point of rubbing the defendants/defaulters the wrong way, and that is (in my book) a NONO!"

If they fetch up at the wrong address as in wrong street right number, and they kick off with the innocent who calls the police, the bailiff shouts and bawls, demands entry, says he is having the car etc etc, would they then be liable to arrest as the warrant or Liability Order has no effect where they knocked?

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

A bailiff who goes to the wrong address has no excuse except inane stupidity and lack of knowledge when it comes to read an A-Z map and quite rightly they should be hung drawn and quartered before being sued for trespass.

If the address on the liability order/ distress warrant/warrant of execution is correct, then the bailiff is not doing anything wrong in knocking on that door, he/she can only do what he/she is instructed to do with the information provided by the paperwork at hand.....however, a bailiff should be prudent enough to make sure that he/she is speaking to the right person, has confirmed residence, before any enforcement is conducted.

As one can see from many threads on this forum, it is quite often that an enforcement agent knocks on the door of the defaulters previous address, and constantly the bailiff is blamed for such action.

It is a known fact that the more callous of defaulters will move without leaving a forwarding address or having their post redirected......and then they start bleeting when they are eventually tracked down and demands are made of them, starting to say that they never heard of such a fine/conviction.

[bizzybob]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

A bailiff who goes to the wrong address has no excuse except inane stupidity and lack of knowledge when it comes to read an A-Z map and quite rightly they should be hung drawn and quartered before being sued for trespass.

If the address on the liability order/ distress warrant/warrant of execution is correct, then the bailiff is not doing anything wrong in knocking on that door, he/she can only do what he/she is instructed to do with the information provided by the paperwork at hand.....however, a bailiff should be prudent enough to make sure that he/she is speaking to the right person, has confirmed residence, before any enforcement is conducted.

As one can see from many threads on this forum, it is quite often that an enforcement agent knocks on the door of the defaulters previous address, and constantly the bailiff is blamed for such action.

It is a known fact that the more callous of defaulters will move without leaving a forwarding address or having their post redirected......and then they start bleeting when they are eventually tracked down and demands are made of them, starting to say that they never heard of such a fine/conviction.

That is absolutely true Sir Vere, and the innocent gets it in the neck for the previous occupant, Marstons bailiffs among others like Busted & Stupid, Ross 'n Robbers, Bumbles & Co are noted for trying every way to force the innocent to pay, saying the warrant is to the address so they have "inherited" the debt etc etc.

I have had that knock myself for a previous occupant, the bailiffs were looking for a guy for non payment of fines He was really pissed off when I produced ID and called plod, he thought plod would back him, but when the officer turned up and greeted me by name his face fell, I called the court, and mr bailiff sloped off and the copper then started checking the bailiffs van.......

[Milo]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

A bailiff who goes to the wrong address has no excuse except inane stupidity and lack of knowledge when it comes to read an A-Z map and quite rightly they should be hung drawn and quartered before being sued for trespass.

If the address on the liability order/ distress warrant/warrant of execution is correct, then the bailiff is not doing anything wrong in knocking on that door, he/she can only do what he/she is instructed to do with the information provided by the paperwork at hand.....however, a bailiff should be prudent enough to make sure that he/she is speaking to the right person, has confirmed residence, before any enforcement is conducted.

As one can see from many threads on this forum, it is quite often that an enforcement agent knocks on the door of the defaulters previous address, and constantly the bailiff is blamed for such action.

It is a known fact that the more callous of defaulters will move without leaving a forwarding address or having their post redirected......and then they start bleeting when they are eventually tracked down and demands are made of them, starting to say that they never heard of such a fine/conviction.

I am really interested in your above post regarding the matter of 'wrong addresses'. This is actually a 'favorite' subject of mine!!!

Magistrate Court Fines

With Magistrate Court FINES, I have been in contact with MOJ and courts myself on many occasions and the position has been made clear to me being that from the courts point of view their responsibility is to send the summons to the address KNOWN to the court and that if this proves at any stage to be the wrong address the debtor is permitted to file a Statutory Declaration to 'rewind' the case back to an earlier stage in the proceedings.

The courts also state very clearly that if a debtor attended court or started making payments under a Collection Order that they therefore KNEW of the proceedings and therefore, if they were to move address they should ensure that they advise the court of a new address.

Liability Order for unpaid council tax:

The statutory regulations applicable to council tax clearly state that the council can issue a summons to the address on their records. Again, the council take the view that if the debtor were to move address (and had known that they had arrears on their account) that they should advise the local authority of a forwarding address. As you will know, unlike a court fine, appealing a Liability Order is a matter for the High Court. Very difficult indeed.

Unpaid parking charge notice.

Approx 5 years ago an amendment was made to part 75.7(7) of the Civil Procedure Rules to outline the procedure that must be undertaken where a NEW ADDRESS is located for the debtor. Unfortunately, due to the very poor drafting of the amendment most bailiff companies have taken to IGNORING this amendment. Sadly, the matter was made even worse by a CIVEA Newsletter sent to all their members to outline CIVEA's 'interpretation' of the amendment...which is to ignore it.

PS: Hopefully when the DfT have considered the responses to the recent Consultation Paper on the use of CCTV they may (fingers crossed) BAN the use of ANPR equipped vehicles from being used to enforce unpaid PCN's.

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

I am really interested in your above post regarding the matter of 'wrong addresses'. This is actually a 'favorite' subject of mine!!!

Magistrate Court Fines

With Magistrate Court FINES, I have been in contact with MOJ and courts myself on many occasions and the position has been made clear to me being that from the courts point of view their responsibility is to send the summons to the address KNOWN to the court and that if this proves at any stage to be the wrong address the debtor is permitted to file a Statutory Declaration to 'rewind' the case back to an earlier stage in the proceedings.

The courts also state very clearly that if a debtor attended court or started making payments under a Collection Order that they therefore KNEW of the proceedings and therefore, if they were to move address they should ensure that they advise the court of a new address.

Liability Order for unpaid council tax:

The statutory regulations applicable to council tax clearly state that the council can issue a summons to the address on their records. Again, the council take the view that if the debtor were to move address (and had known that they had arrears on their account) that they should advise the local authority of a forwarding address. As you will know, unlike a court fine, appealing a Liability Order is a matter for the High Court. Very difficult indeed.

Unpaid parking charge notice.

Approx 5 years ago an amendment was made to part 75.7(7) of the Civil Procedure Rules to outline the procedure that must be undertaken where a NEW ADDRESS is located for the debtor. Unfortunately, due to the very poor drafting of the amendment most bailiff companies have taken to IGNORING this amendment. Sadly, the matter was made even worse by a CIVEA Newsletter sent to all their members to outline CIVEA's 'interpretation' of the amendment...which is to ignore it.

PS: Hopefully when the DfT have considered the responses to the recent Consultation Paper on the use of CCTV they may (fingers crossed) BAN the use of ANPR equipped vehicles from being used to enforce unpaid PCN's.

What you say Milo, for Magistrate Court fines and Liability Orders for unpaid CT puts the onus on the debtor to keep the Authority informed of any changes.......a bit like a fox telling the hounds where it will be next....everybody draw your own conclusions!

As far as using ANPR equipped vehicle for unpaid PCNs I do not see an issue there, the onus is on the ANPR operator to keep records up to date with DVLA, daily ideally, but weekly will do; the issue with the whole process is actually DVLA, between 4 to 6 weeks backlog and administration procedures that are not fit for purpose.

[bizzybob]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

ANPR in the hands of private cerificated bailiffs should be banned end of. There are definite issues with police pulling over cars because JBW ANPR goes kerching in that potentially unlawful joint operation, especially as most are council PCN debt rather than a criminal fine..

[Fair-Parking]

Re: The Certification of Enforcement Agents Regulations 2014. Discussion thread.....

The use of ANPR most certainly IS an abuse. ANPR is the antipathy of warrants of execution. Why would bailiffs need ANPR if they drive straight to the address written on a warrant? It is because ANPR operators do NOT have warrants with them that they need ANPR. The whole purpose of ANPR is to detect a vehicle at a location not written on a warrant. That then invokes the ignoring of CPR 75 (7) (7).

Then we have data protection abuses. Already the passing on of private data from local authority to bailiff companies for the collection of an alleged civil debt falls outside of the Data Protection Act 1998. However the passing on of this data to fourth parties i.e. self employed ANPR bailiffs is a further abuse of the DPA.

As a separate but more condemning question -how many of these ANPR operators complete with their mobile data bases do you imagine are regsitered with the Information Commissioner's Office under Section 17 of the DPA as the law requires?