Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

[lawman1234]

Hi all,

I am new here and was wondering if anyone can advise me on whether to pursue a claim in the county court for being wrongly pursued by Marstons for an unpaid fine which is not mine. What would the basis be for stating the claim and who would I be suing:Marston or the State secretary of Justice?

Your advice would be appreciated.

Thanks

[bizzybob]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi lawman1234 welcome to Legal Beagles

Could you give us the background to this please, as in what Marstons purport the fine to be for, which court etc please. This will allow Beagles to sniff out a way forward to tackle this.

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hello Bizzybob,

Okay I'll try to explain what I know. I do not know what the fine is for but I know that it was for my neighbour who lives upstairs from me. I know him very well and have in the past helped him with a magistrates court matter.I think that it might be relating to that matter in which he wanted to plead guilty by post and I helped him by guiding him when filling out the court forms. I have tried to find out from both the magistrates court in central London and Marston themselves,but they would not tell me. My neighbour was and still is in hospital and it is rumoured that he won't becoming back due to the nature of his health situation.
The letter only gave me the following "HMCTS SE & Central" as the name of their client. I don't have a court case number. I do know that when my neighbour completed the forms he gave his name & correct address details etc. He apparently received a fine but unfortunately he defaulted on his fine and so a distress warrant was issued and passed to Marston's. Marstons said they wrote to the defaulter twice in May and when they received no response, they sent one of their Bailiff's round. But he ended up at my address instead of the defaulter's. I contacted marston to let them know that their agent had come to an address which was not on the warrant (mine) instead of the defaulters (my neighbour's) but this was just to distance myself from the fine so that no further visits take place at my address. I asked Marston's to update their records to reflect their agent's mistake so that it doesn't happen again, but they refused and demanded proof of occupancy. So I put in a complaint. I followed the complaint procedure through to stage three. During this period, Marstons repeatedly threatened to send their Agent round to my address unless I provided them with the evidence they asked for. I refused and stood my ground and even put in a section ten notice under the data protection act 1998. Throughout the complaint procedure they acknowledged my distress and eventually their chief executive sent their final report in which he agreed that I did not have to provide them with proof of occupancy. But he argued against the fact that his agents needed to be certificated. He claimed there was no law which said they need it be certificated. He also told me that he noted their database and returned the warrant to the court?! Am i missing something here?

The fact that the warrant was returned to court has no bearing upon my complaint as it did not have anything to do with me in the first place. But what I wanted as settlement was compensation which was not offered. He also apologised for the inconvenience and distress caused.

I hope this gives you some background as to what has happened. Sorry to rattle on.

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hello Bizzybob,

Okay I'll try to explain what I know.

I do not know what the fine is for but I know that it was for my neighbour who lives upstairs from me. I know him very well and have in the past helped him with a magistrates court matter.I think that it might be relating to that matter in which he wanted to plead guilty by post and I helped him by guiding him when filling out the court forms. I have tried to find out from both the magistrates court in central London and Marston themselves,but they would not tell me.

Quite rightly so, the information you asked for is covered by the Data Protection Act and since you are not the defendant and the defendant has not given the Court or Marston the authority to speak to anyone they will not speak with you.

My neighbour was and still is in hospital and it is rumoured that he won't becoming back due to the nature of his health situation.

The letter only gave me the following "HMCTS SE & Central" as the name of their client. I don't have a court case number. I do know that when my neighbour completed the forms he gave his name & correct address details etc. He apparently received a fine but unfortunately he defaulted on his fine and so a distress warrant was issued and passed to Marston's. Marstons said they wrote to the defaulter twice in May and when they received no response, they sent one of their Bailiff's round. But he ended up at my address instead of the defaulter's.

It could well be taht the defendant, for heaven knows what reason, has given the Court your address not his. One can only go by the information one has at the time.

I contacted marston to let them know that their agent had come to an address which was not on the warrant (mine) instead of the defaulters (my neighbour's) but this was just to distance myself from the fine so that no further visits take place at my address. I asked Marston's to update their records to reflect their agent's mistake so that it doesn't happen again, but they refused and demanded proof of occupancy.

If Marston or any other bailiff firm would believe everything that people write to them as a consequence of their letters they would not be in business for long, yes some bailiffs do lie, but most defendants are really economical with the truth as well.

So I put in a complaint. I followed the complaint procedure through to stage three. During this period, Marstons repeatedly threatened to send their Agent round to my address unless I provided them with the evidence they asked for. I refused and stood my ground and even put in a section ten notice under the data protection act 1998. Throughout the complaint procedure they acknowledged my distress and eventually their chief executive sent their final report in which he agreed that I did not have to provide them with proof of occupancy. But he argued against the fact that his agents needed to be certificated. He claimed there was no law which said they need it be certificated.

For Distress Warrants (not that I agreee with) there is no need for the attending baliff to be Certificated, as long as he is supervised (albeit at a distance) by one who is.

He also told me that he noted their database and returned the warrant to the court?! Am i missing something here?

The fact that the warrant was returned to court has no bearing upon my complaint as it did not have anything to do with me in the first place. But what I wanted as settlement was compensation which was not offered. He also apologised for the inconvenience and distress caused.

I hope this gives you some background as to what has happened. Sorry to rattle on.

Your wish for compensation will never happen, because if the warrant issued by the Court had your address on it then the bailiff did not do anything wrong, eventually they backed off and apologized.

When I was "on the street" I would start at 6am (official time for a bailiff to start work) knock on the door of my first warrant I had in my hand and ask for the defendant.

Reality is that only 15/20% of the time I was at the right place, either the defendant had moved on, or they were using that as a postal address, or (worse) they had given the Court the wrong address (I still believe that lack of ID cards in this Country makes it easy for the scum, law abiding citizens should have no problem in carrying ID cards....but that's my opinion, shoot me if you want)
Sorry I would say to those I disturbed at the end of their slumber, but compensation they would not get. Sometimes, although I did leave "letters" with my mobile number stamped on the envelope, I returned to addresses a number of times, until the occupier eventually (and angrily) would tell me that who I was looking for was not there, but if I did not get a reply on the first or second visit I woud not give up.

My blessing is that I speak in a low voice, my words are clearly pronounced and I will address everybody as Sir or Madam, immaterial of their age or social status, and people used to listen to what I had to say. My explanations, without breaching DPA were sufficient to settle the matter.

[bluebottle]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Good solid advice from Sir Vere.

It sounds to me that fault lies with the court, not Marstons. If you still feel aggrieved, then you need to make a formal complaint to the the court that issued the Distress Warrant. In the first instance, write to the Court Manager at the court that issued the Distress Warrant and take it from there. If you need to escalate the matter, come back onto this thread for details of the escalation route.

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi Sir Vere,

Thanks for your reply. I know for a fact that the defendant did not give my address to the court because I assisted him with the filling out of the court forms in preparation for pleading guilty by post and I know that the defendant give his correct address to the court. I also know that the warrant did not have my address. This was confirmed, perhaps inadvertantly, by marstons final letter on the outcome of my complaint. The chief executive confirmed that marstons only had my email address and name on their database. These are the details I had given them. What they were trying to do is get me to give them my address details by providing an utility / council tax bill etc. I was relunctant to do this because once they have that info, they can then use it to enforce their warrant at my address as if it is one of the defendant's addresses. The chief executive also said that I did not have to provide those details, so why the threats? Why did their staff dealing with my complaint threaten me with a bailiff visit, whilst their chief executive has confirmed that such info was not necessary? I have dealt with many debt collecting/bailiff firms with a similiar letter as the one I sent before I made a complaint and they all backed off! Even law firms backed off. I appreciate the fact that they eventually backed off and apologised but this matter had been ongoing since 16 October and it was only yesterday that they emailed their final outcome. They have acknowledged that I have suffered distress and inconvenience, but they should have backed off along time ago. if they had done so, I would not have suffered as much distress as I have. I am not sure that this will be the end of it, maybe it will be the end of it with marstons, but will the court reissue the warrant and then assign it to another bailiff firm?

[CleverClogs]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

(I still believe that lack of ID cards in this Country makes it easy for the scum, law abiding citizens should have no problem in carrying ID cards....but that's my opinion, shoot me if you want)

You are John Boast and I claim the News Chronicle prize! :rofl:

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi Bluebottle, Thank you for your reply. Please see my reply to Sir Vere's Reply to my post.

What you say may well be true ie: that the court may be at fault not marston, however, without knowing which address they had on their court file, I would not have been able to establish this. This was why I tried to get this info from the court. Now I do respect the fact that they did not have the right to give this info to me, I had to at least try. I also respected marstons decision to do the same. But this hampered my investigation into who was actually responsible and also to determine to whom I should submit my complaint. So I then contacted marstons by email and informally reported that their agent had made an error by attending the wrong address, with the intention of simply distancing myself from the fine so that the bailiff doesn't come back to my address to enforce their warrant. I clearly stated in my email that I wasn't trying to stop them from doing their job, but was trying to stop them from doing it at my address.

Do you perhaps know the contact details for the magistrates court manager for the central London magistrates court?

Sorry to be a bit of a pain here.

Thanks Bluebottle

[CleverClogs]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Do you perhaps know the contact details for the magistrates court manager for the central London magistrates court?

If you take a dump in the Trafalgar Square fountains, you may get a chance to meet him. :grin:

[bluebottle]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi Bluebottle, Thank you for your reply. Please see my reply to Sir Vere's Reply to my post.

What you say may well be true ie: that the court may be at fault not marston, however, without knowing which address they had on their court file, I would not have been able to establish this. This was why I tried to get this info from the court. Now I do respect the fact that they did not have the right to give this info to me, I had to at least try. I also respected marstons decision to do the same. But this hampered my investigation into who was actually responsible and also to determine to whom I should submit my complaint. So I then contacted marstons by email and informally reported that their agent had made an error by attending the wrong address, with the intention of simply distancing myself from the fine so that the bailiff doesn't come back to my address to enforce their warrant. I clearly stated in my email that I wasn't trying to stop them from doing their job, but was trying to stop them from doing it at my address.

Do you perhaps know the contact details for the magistrates court manager for the central London magistrates court?

Sorry to be a bit of a pain here.

Thanks Bluebottle

It will depend on which magistrates court in Central London issued the distress warrant and there are a number of magistrates courts in Central London.

However, having looked at the nature of what has happened, the actions of Marstons, even when it became evident you were not the defendant, and the unsatisfactory resolution you appear to have received from Marstons, it is evident that fault, in all probability, lies with Marstons and not the court that issued the distress warrant. Due to what appears to be an unsatisfactory resolution of your complaint by Marstons CEO, I would be inclined to refer this matter to H.M. Courts & Tribunals Service (HMCTS) at senior management level.

In the first instance, you should write to -

Correspondence, Complaints and Litigation Unit
H.M. Courts & Tribunals Service
102 Petty France
London
SW1H 9AJ

Submit your complaint as a document in its own right, accompanied by a covering letter. The document should be typed in Times New Roman. Below is a sample -

FORMAL COMPLAINT

1. IMPROPER EXECUTION OF A MAGISTRATES COURT DISTRESS WARRANT BY AN APPROVED ENFORCEMENT AGENT, NAMELY, MARSTON GROUP LIMITED;
2. TRESPASS BY AN APPROVED ENFORCEMENT AGENT, NAMELY, MARSTON GROUP LIMITED;
3. HARASSMENT OF A PERSON NOT BEING A DEFENDANT BY AN APPROVED ENFORCEMENT AGENT, NAMELY, MARSTON GROUP LIMITED;
3. MAKING OF UNWARRANTED DEMANDS OF AND USE OF IMPROPER THREATS AGAINST A PERSON NOT BEING A DEFENDANT BY AN APPROVED ENFORCEMENT AGENT, NAMELY, MARSTON GROUP LIMITED

The circumstances are:-

1. ............................

2. ............................

3. ............................

and so on. It would be prudent to remind HMCTS that they and their Approved Enforcement Agent are subject to the Human Rights Act 1998. Something along the lines of -

The attention of Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service is drawn to the fact that, as a government agency, it is subject to the Articles and Protocols under the Human Rights Act 1998 in its dealings with members of the public. This extends to any body corporate carrying out any function in the capacity of or on behalf of a government agency or department, in this case, Marston Group Limited.

The rights under the Act I have reasonable cause to believe have been breached, in my case, are -

i. Article 8 (Right to Respect for Private and Family Life); and
ii. Article 1 of Protocol 1 (Protection of Property)

Please be assured that HMCTS take complaints of illegal/improper/unlawful conduct by Approved Enforcement Agents seriously. Government agencies and departments tend to forget that the Human Rights Act applies to their dealings with members of the public and those private sector companies who act on their behalf either conveniently forget or are totally oblivious to the fact they are subject to the Act, also. Human Rights are very important and many died to ensure those rights exist and are preserved so that we can live without the fear of history repeating itself.

May I take this opportunity to wish you a Happy New Year.

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi Sir Vera,

Just wanted to add that I did consider the scenarios you mentioned in your post where attends at the address on the warrant but finds out that the defaulter has moved on or given a false address to the court etc and ofcourse, in those circumstances, it would not be marston's fault. But this is not the case in my situation. In the case at hand marston's agent made an error by going to an thaddress not on their warrant (mine) instead of the one on his warrant (the defaulter's). This was confirmed by marston's chief executive when he confirmed that he only had my email address and my name on record. Sorry to keep banging on!:santa2:

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi Bluebottle,

Thank you very much for your advice, it is much appreciated. I will start preparing my complaint immediately and send it off in the new year. I'll let you know how I get on .

Thank you very much for the new year wish.

May I take this opportunity to also wish you a happy new year.

Thank you again Bluebottle

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi Clevercloggs,

Thanks for the advice, I might just try that!

[wales01man]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Can I ask? How did marstons get your address?

[lawman1234]

Re: Wrongly pursued for an unpaid magistrates fine

Hi wales01man,

Marstons don't have my address. They sent their bailiff to the address on the warrant which the defendant's. The defendant lives in the flat above me. I live in the ground flat. My flat has a seperate entrance to it. All the other flats at the address have a main entrance which leads to a communual area which takes them to the flats above me. All Marstons have is my email address and my name which I gave to them when communicating with them by email.

Hope this answers your question.:santa2: