Notice of Seizure - valid?

[stevep]

Hi all, had an interesting time trawling through previous posts, but have been unable to find a specific answer to my query...

My wife found herself with a CT bill covering a short period of employment that she hadn't budgetted for. She didn't tell me about it etc etc until it was too late. The Council got a LO and charged the account with a fee for this. After a few letter they got the bailiffs involved and whilst we have since tried to argue the toss with the council over the actions taken by the bailiffs, we have now paid the initial CT and LO fees. The only amount left outstanding are the bailiffs fees. As much as it pains me to say so, I probably won't dispute the fees for the first and second visit as these allegedly occured prior to me paying the CT and I can't actually prove the bailiffs didn't actually turn up so here is the query:

On a visit in January I answered the door, the person asked for Mrs P and I told him she was out (which she was). He handed me a letter and walked away. When Mrs P opened the letter on her return, we found it to be a "Notice of Seizure" which listed her car (which was on the drive outside - no finance, and def hers). A week later he returned and acted very poorly, in my absence, towards my wife in front of the kids incl threatening to take the car (whilst the kids were in the car) even though she informed him that we had disputed the charges etc etc. This has since been through the complaints process with the council and the LGO has now reported that as it is her word against theirs, they will not act or find against the bailiff/council.

I was under the impression from reading here that a Levy Fee and Attendance to Remove fee couldn't be charged for the same visit, but the council and the LGO failed to agree with this, despite my citing a court case which went against this, because the court case related to a PCN rather than CT - it was still regarding the application of schedule 5 fees, go figure!

I have heard and read lots of opinions about what the necessary elements of a Notice of Seizure are, but have yet to find a definitive list. Does the NoS need to be signed by the debtor like a walking possession? Does the name on the form need to be legible? Does the form need to be attached to the vehicle? Should the bailiff have made some effort to secure the vehicle?

I look forward to hearing any advice

Thanks in advance

[legalese]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

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[stevep]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

LO? I haven't got a copy of the LO, but have confirmed that the amount was what we were expecting, so never requested a copy. Did you need the Notice of Seizure?

The Ombudsman? she was great :-S No idea how to complain against her though - is there an ombudsman of ombudsmen?

[legalese]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

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[stevep]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

Hopefully that attached

For reference - the name and address were correct (although no post code)
the registration of the vehicle was correct
the colour of the vehicle is actually dark blue not black
the amount entered as the LO on the notice is obviously incorrect - the figure entered is the same as the total??
should have been 196.10 which is the LO + 1st and 2nd visits

[legalese]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

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[stevep]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

yeah, uploaded a diff version now

The seizure didn't take place because we lodged a complaint with the council who suspended all action, the question now is are the fees applied to the account because of this notice valid, or is the notice invalid and therefore, the charges

[legalese]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

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[bluebottle]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

Hi Steve,

Apart from what is legitimately owed, the other charges listed on the document you have posted are not in accordance with legislation. Therefore, they should be disregarded. Pay everything legitimately owed to the council, including any LEGITIMATE bailiff fees. This will p*ss-off Rundles as they will have to go to the council for their fees. Serves them right for not complying with the law.

[stevep]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

I have already paid what I believe is legitimately owed, my concern is that the LGO has just issued it's final report into my "case" and with the bailiff fees for levy and attendance to remove still on my council account, I do expect to see my friends again with a view to collecting on these.

At no point have I argued with the council regarding the suitability of the Notice of Seizure (I had previously been arguing against the application of levy fee and attendance fee for the same visit). Do I just write to the council telling them that the Notice is invalid? I guess if the notice is invalid, the levy fee and, therefore, the attendance fee are both invalid?

[bluebottle]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

Charges certificated bailiffs may LEGITIMATELY charge when collecting CT arrears are contained within the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 (as amended), copies of which are attached to this post. As such, certificated bailiffs can charge no more than the regulations permit. Any charges outside the regulations are unlawful and not enforceable.

Look through the regulations and work out how much Rundles are LEGITIMATELY entitled to charge, then post up how much their ILLEGAL fees come to, please.

[TopBoy]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

Hi stevep,

Unfortunately I an using s mobile to read this thread do cannot view the attached nos - but still may be able to advise. Firstly, the bailiff can legally levy and remove on the same day (and charge you for the privalege) - the only restriction is that he cannot sell the car for 5 days. In regards to removing the bailiffs implied right if access - this would be very unlikely to be successful, as once the bailiff had seized (levied) the goods he has the right to return to remove the seized goods (the implied right can really only be removed prior to the levy). Who have you paid the sums to do far? If it is ge bailiff then he will have paid off the bailiff fees 1st and he remaining bakance will be owed to the council. If you paid the council you will need to contact them and ask how the funds were allocated - some councils will pay he bailiff fees 1st too.

[legalese]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

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[stevep]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

OK, so despite my attempt to question whether the first visit actually happened (I know it did not because I was home all day, and no post - hand delivered or otherwise - was received on that day) the council (and subsequently LGO) are siding, unsurprisingly, with the bailiff, so I have accepted the first and second visit fees.

For info, the amounts owed under the LO, and the charge for obtaining the LO, were paid directly to the council. It is my intention to conceede the 1st & 2nd visits, as a result of the LGO report received on Saturday, and pay those, again to the council, this week.

My only dispute is over the Levy and attendance to remove fee - and I question these on three points

1) Having read through the documents BlueBottle posted (many thanks for those!), I found that the bailiff "shall hand to the debtor or leave at the premises where the distress is levied a copy of this regulation and Schedule 5 and a memorandum setting out the appropriate amount, and shall hand to the debtor a copy of any close or walking possession agreement entered into " as the copy of the regulation was not received (only a copy of schedule 5 was included), then there has been a breach of process. The fact that the figure entered as the LO is incorrect, should also render the notice invalid.

2) I understand that there are 3 types of Levy Close possession - where a bailiff remains on the property with the goods; Walking possession - where the bailiff impounds the goods but leaves them in your possession subject to a repayment agreement, for this to be lawful, you must have signed a walking possession form in agreement; Immediate removal. The closest to this is the Walking Possession, but as no repayment agreement was made, and no such agreement was presented or signed, no recognisable levy actually took place.

3) The debt is actually in the name of my wife (and it is her car). The bailiff arrived at home, he asked for her, I said she wasn't in and he just handed over the sealed envelope. He made no attempt to gain entry, the notice had obviously been pre-prepared, and the vehicle he was in certainly wasn't going to be of any use in removing a car. My assumption is that he came with no intention of collecting monies owed, and was simply there to inflate his fees. In fact, when I asked him how much was owed he quoted £373.10 which apart from being a DPA breach (not my debt) included the fees for levy and attendance for removal which at that time hadn't actually occurred, which backs up this view.

[legalese]

Re: Notice of Seizure - valid?

Pay it and be done with it stevep its only £373.10p not worth the hassle.