B&S Illegal Fees

[Guest]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

I dont think regular bobbies do investigations. If you are taking the criminal route, the Fraud Act 2006 is perfect, compile all the evidence before presenting the package to the local constabulary CID and make your approach by way of prior appointment with a specific detective.

[ploddertom]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

Hi, spoke to council today who said fees are to be discussed with bailiff. IF I am unhappy to go to citizens advice as nothing council can do. So have drafted following letter to head of revenues. Can you please check it for me, anything I need to add?

Head Of Revenues,

xxx Council have used an enforcement contractor (Bristow & Stutor) to enforce a liability order for the payment of council tax on the above property for year 2010/2011.

I wish to complain about illegal - unlawful - fees on this account which the bailiff has applied. I have enclosed a copy of the bailiff’s statement for your viewing, along with the notice of seizure. I have complained to Bristow & Stutor several times but to no avail so am writing to you to get these fees removed. I am also unhappy as why an attachment of earnings has been handed to Bristow & Stutor to execute rather than being executed by xxx Borough Council. Perhaps this could be explained. As you are aware, xxx Borough Council are 100% responsible for their enforcement contractors actions and 100% responsible for making sure that any fees applied by their contractors are fair and legal.

I am complaining about the following illegal - unlawful - fees:

Levy Fee - £74.00

The £74.00 levy fee is illegal because no levy took place. Though two cars were listed on the notice of seizure, - if the vehicles were listed on the NoS then a levy did take place - a walk in possession agreement was never signed - a walking possession agreement does not have to be signed to make a levy lawful, if you had of signed it then this would have entitled the Bailiff to charge a further fee of £12 - and the cars were never removed - goods are removed as a last resort. This levy is also irregular because the value of both cars listed would not cover the liability owed. - you need to expand on this

Van/Abortive Removal Fee - £180

The van/abortive removal fee of £180 is illegal because no levy took place and no walk in possession agreement was signed. [FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Bailiffs cannot bring a van to your home and try to charge you for it before they get a 'walking possession agreement'.[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font] - see above

Redemption Fee (Head H) - £24.50
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'] [/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Bristow & Stutor say 'The charge is made under schedule 5 (3 for NDR) and is payable for the release of the listed goods back to your control. It is similar to the fee payable to reclaim (or redeem) items pledged to a pawnbroker as security for a loan or the final payment of a hire purchase agreement'[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']No walk in possession agreement was signed and no levy took place so this fee is illegal. - see above[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif']
The argument against the Header H Fee is by reading the appropriate Regulations. The Regulations themselves are clear in the fact by saying you can collect your goods. To collect any goods they must have been previously removed. Essentially no removal, no sale arranged then no Header H Fee.

[/font][FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']I look forward to your response.[/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Arial','sans-serif']Yours sincerely,[/font]

Just my thoughts.

[Guest]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

You have a confirmed case the bailiff has charged you for work he hasnt done.

http://www.publications.parliament.u...70420w0001.htm see under Crime Fraud

A bailiff or any other person who dishonestly charges for work that has
not been done will be committing an offence under the Fraud Act 2006


Where a person dishonestly makes a false representation and intends, by making the representation, to make a gain for himself or another, or cause a loss to another, or expose another to a risk of loss, that person will be committing an offence

You have a right to make a complaint to police.

The Criminal Investigation Department
[NAME OF POLICE AUTHORITY]
[ADDRESS AND POSTCODE]

[DATE]

Dear sir,

REF: Reporting an offence under the Fraud Act

I received a enforcement officer on [DATE] collecting unpaid council tax of [AMOUNT] from [NAME OF BAILIFF COMPANY] representing [NAME OF COUNCIL].

I paid the officer the sum of [AMOUNT OF FINE+AMOUNT FEE] but I have now discovered he has charged me for that he has not done when I asked for a breakdown of his fees.

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, Schedule 5 sets out a table of fees an enforcement officer can charge for the work he has done.

The officer charged me :

1. Levy Fee[sic] £74.00
2. Van/Abortive Removal Fee[sic] £180
3. Redemtion Fee (Head H) £24.50.

Form items 1 and 2, the regulations do not provide for fees of those descriptions or amount charged, and in any event, no levy took place.

Item 3 is a fee for me to collect my goods upon payment of the debt. The officer did not seize any goods, or come into contact with them.

I therefore bring this complaint as an offence committed under the Fraud Act 2006, where section 2 makes it an offence to obtain a money transfer by making a false representation.

This offence is an arrestable offence under Section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984

On 20 April 2007, the House of Lords confirmed this type of crime is within the scope of the Fraud Act 2006.

I am happy to help you in your enquiries and stand as a prosecution witness at trial if needed.

Yours Sincerely


[YOUR NAME]
Enc. Copy your document confirming fees were charged.

[toffeecrisp141271]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

Right here is an update. I wrote to head of revenues at the council and got a letter back saying someone not connected with the case will look into it. I then got a further reply from the council quoting what the bailiff had said to them. So much for an independent view huh??

Anyway I then send a letter to the director of the council saying I will be filing a reg 46 complaint unless this is sorted. Anyway the director passed it onto Assistant Director Finance and Resources who says and I will type out the letter:

Dear Mr xxxxx

Thank you for your recent letter to the Chief Executive which he has passed to me to respond to you directly.

I have looked into the circumstances surrounding your account and the response that Mr xxx has sent you. You mention you are unhappy that our reply included detail that was provided by the bailiff company. I apologise if you feel that this was not useful, but Mr xxxx felt it gave further clarity around the fees that the bailiffs have charged you.

You also mention that you feel these fees are unlawful and that xxxx Borough Council are acting unlawfully and improperly by condoning the actions of our contractors. I would like to assure you that this is not the case. xxxx Borough Council contracts bailiff companies to recover outstanding council tax debts where it feels that this is appropriate. This is a perfectly legal arrangement that occurs in most local authorities. The fees incurred are between you and the bailiff company and have only arisen because you have failed to pay your council tax on time or make a satisfactory arrangement to repay the monies outstanding.'

So from above they don't give a toss, and say they are not responsible for the fees including the £180 for a van which was never used. I have reached a dead end with the council so now I need to do a reg 46 complaint I believe. I now no longer live in the borough so what magistrates court would I send the complaint to? Also any idea how much it costs? I'm not rich.

[toffeecrisp141271]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

Stupid question probably. Do I write my regulation 46 complaint to the councils local magistrates court or thelocal magistrates court of where I live now?

[outlawlgo]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

This was a letter from the Magistrates' court when I submitted a regulation 46 complaint. Unfortunately I can't give you any other information as I was time barred from bringing the proceedings before the court.

There is a limitation of time that applies to starting court proceedings and section 127 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 states that a magistrates' court shall not hear a complaint unless the complaint is made within 6 months from the time the matter of complaint arose.

Clerk to the Justices Magistrates'
Court Victoria Street Grimsby
North East Lincolnshire

Dear Mr ....,

Re: Proceedings against North East Lincolnshire Council

I have received your request to issue proceedings against the local Council.

The proceedings have to be started by way of complaint so I have enclosed the appropriate form for you to complete and then return to the court.

Please note that there is a fee of £200 for making the application. I have enclosed an information leaflet which will assist you as to whether you qualify for a concession or not.

Once the completed complaint form and the required fee is received by the court, a hearing date will be fixed and the court will notify you and the Council of that date. The court normally deals with this type of case on a Wednesday or Thursday afternoon.

If I can be of further assistance please contact me at this office. My direct dial is 01472 5...

Legal Team Manager

Grimsby Magistrates' Court

I think this leaflet EX160A explains if you qualify for a concession of the fees.

[outlawlgo]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

.....and a £24.50 redemption fee.

The redemption fee is: 'The charge is made under schedule 5 (3 for NDR) and is payable for the release of the listed goods back to your control. It is similar to the fee payable to reclaim (or redeem) items pledged to a pawnbroker as security for a loan or the final payment of a hire purchase agreement'...

B&S are making this up. This is not a fee for the redemption of goods, it compensates the bailiff firm for out of pocket expenses incurred for advertising levied goods which have to be returned to the debtor because of settlement of the outstanding debt.

Releasing the goods back to the debtor's control is a consequence of the debt being settled before a sale has taken place, which in any case has not occurred.

This may not agree with B&S's interpretation of schedule 5 of the regulations but then it's in their interest to have interpreted it to suit themselves.

A fee for redemption it is not.

H) Where no sale takes place by reason of payment or tender in the Circumstances referred to in Regulation 45(4);

For fees incurred in respect of advertising

Either:

(i) £24.50, or

(ii) the actual costs incurred, to a maximum of 5% of the amount in respect of which the liability order was made.

whichever is the greater.

B&S have charged the minimum fee of £24.50 for advertising the levied goods which means they would have to had incurred £24.50 or less. You could of course ask for the receipt proving the amount they incurred for this advertising.

[toffeecrisp141271]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

They never took anything so how could they have a charge for advertising it???

Anyway, I sent all this to the government ombudsman. This was about three weeks ago now, haven't heard anything. Does say it could take five weeks lol, how slow is that,

[toffeecrisp141271]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

Well I'm still waiting to hear from the Government Ombudsman. Apparently they are sending me a letter after having looked at the case and what the council had said. They haven't bothered to speak to me about it in person. Should get a reply from them next week.

[toffeecrisp141271]

Re: B&S Illegal Fees

Well finally got a reply but they got the wrong end of the stick and said I was denying a levy ever took place (which is wrong) and therefore it is a matter for the courts to decide. Took them 3 months to come to this incorrect conclusion. Now I'll have to correct them on this and wait another 3 months I guess.