Cabot bought NatWest debt

[HelenaTroy]

Hopefully this could be good news for me!

NatWest Credit Card taken out in 1997 - defaulted in 2006 - paying £1.00 per month from 2006 to NatWest - then £1.00 per month to Wescot (who are now managing the account) since 2016.

Received paperwork this morning from Cabot, to say they are now the owners of the debt, but Wescot will still manage the debt, so I've to keep paying the £1 per month.

In the past I did make a couple of F&F offers to Natwest but they were rejected.
Highest offer I made was 30% for a £8k debt.

I'm now thinking that perhaps Cabot will be more amenable to a low F&F
I won't contact them about that until they contact me - if they do.

However, I'm also still not sure about the validity of the CCA that I received from NatWest a couple of years ago!
Hopefully I've attached it properly!
It's an Application Form which I've signed way back in 1997.
It's not very clear but with the help of a magnifying glass I can see that it definitely DOESN'T have any of the prescribed terms on it - or even refer to them as far as I can see.
I can see from the top of the form, that this application form was one which I folded and sealed and popped into the post box, so the reverse side of it would have been the NatWest address.

Is this a valid CCA, could Cabot win in Court against me with this form (if they ever went that far)?
NatWest did send me the prescribed terms two years ago, but they were on separate sheets of random unnumbered A4 paper and as mentioned above, not referred to in the signed application form.

Thanks in advance.

[Diana M]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Unfortunately I can't read that document not just because it's blurred but because it's (sensibly) heavily redacted.

However I see it was an application for a "Combined Card Account" so what was this credit card combined with?

Di

[HelenaTroy]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Hi Diana, it was for a Visa and a Mastercard.

[Diana M]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

I'm also still not sure about the validity of the CCA that I received from NatWest a couple of years ago!
. . .
It's an Application Form which I've signed way back in 1997.
It's not very clear but with the help of a magnifying glass I can see that it definitely DOESN'T have any of the prescribed terms on it - or even refer to them as far as I can see.
I can see from the top of the form, that this application form was one which I folded and sealed and popped into the post box, so the reverse side of it would have been the NatWest address.

Is this a valid CCA, could Cabot win in Court against me with this form (if they ever went that far)?
NatWest did send me the prescribed terms two years ago, but they were on separate sheets of random unnumbered A4 paper and as mentioned above, not referred to in the signed application form..

From what you say you've received a "Hello" letter (NOA) from Cabot.

A couple of years ago you received a 'credit agreement' from NatWest, was this in response to a formal s 77-79 CCA Request which included the £1 statutory fee?

Was there a covering letter with what you were sent which may have referred to any of the documents being "reconstituted"?

You say you were sent the scanned copy of your application form which was one of those fold-up forms to return in the post. You say you were sent pages of Ts & Cs which may not have been present when you signed the application form. Were these sent in separate responses by NatWest?

It looks like there was not only PPI but also a card protection policy which you requested (did you?).

I'm not going to tell you if that makes this debt unenforceable because the document you have uploaded is illegible (which is an issue unto itself) and I've not seen the Ts & Cs etc.

However I successfully defeated a claim recently and some of the issues which surfaced during my case may give you food for thought >

PRA GROUP (UK) LIMITED v DIANA MAYHEW – WIN

‘“RECONSTITUTED AGREEMENT” – IRREDEEMABLY UNENFORCEABLE”
“UNREDACTED DEEDS OF ASSIGNMENT – NO ASSIGMENT PROVED”

So, held Recorder Bellamy in PRA Group (UK) Limited v Mayhew at Central London County Court on 22nd March 2017, at the end of a 3 day multi track trial, when dismissing PRA’s claim against our client.

Stale debts sued for on the back of 2 ‘reconstituted’ MBNA credit card agreements (May 1999 and October 2000) were held irredeemably unenforceable under CCA 1974. The evidence of an honest witness was preferred to that of so called “reconstituted agreements”.


After 3 days of close forensic examination of, and legal argument about, evidence and documents from both PRA and MBNA stating that our client’s specific debt had been assigned, the court held that no assignment had been proved.


Efforts, over many months, in earlier cases to force PRA into disclosure of un-redacted deeds and deep and sustained forensic challenge to the provenance of documents needed to prove regulatory compliance, finally drew back the veil. The reality behind bulk debt purchasing was revealed.


This decision shows that just saying an agreement is enforceable and producing a “reconstituted” copy does not prove that it is enforceable. Just saying an agreement has been assigned and producing a notice saying it has been assigned does not prove legal assignment.


Debt purchasers need to provide proof. If that means the pitifully few pence in the pound they pay for stale debts will increase because banks will now have to start keeping original evidence complying with regulatory consumer protection measures, it is hard to imagine many tears being shed, outside the City of London.

Depending on whether you have already sent a formal s 77-79 CCA Request or not, you may wish to send one to Cabot but wait until all the facts become clear.

I would send a Subject Access Request to NatWest so that you get the full history for this account. It'll be useful especially since Cabot may not have access to the same information from NatWest as you are entitled to see.

Di

[HelenaTroy]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Thanks for your help Diana.

Here is a copy of the covering letter that came with that 'credit agreement' after I'd made the S77-79 CCA Request which included the £1 statutory fee?

In the credit agreement that you saw in my first post above, everthing in it was entered by myself, although I've redacted it all.

In the same envelope as the copy application form/credit agreement were around 10 pages of info on A4 paper stating all the terms and conditions relating to the account and also pages detailing about the ppi cooling off periods/should I have it?/is it for me etc?
I know 1997 was a long time ago, but I don't remember receiving all that info when I received the credit cards!

[HelenaTroy]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Di,

The attached Application Form is from 1997, it isn't reconstituted and is signed by myself.
However, it definitely does not contain any of the prescribed terms, nor does it refer to the prescribed terms being elsewhere.
Would this make the 'agreement' unenforceable or would a Judge not take that into account?

Thanks in advance.

[Amethyst]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Can you read the section titled Declaration at all ? - it usually says in that bit about having read and agreed to terms overleaf or attached etc. They need to provide those terms ( as they will contain the prescribed terms interest/payments/default etc etc )

[Diana M]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Thanks for your help Diana

In the credit agreement that you saw in my first post above, everthing in it was entered by myself, although I've redacted it all.

I can't open that attachment for some reason.

Di

[MIKE770]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

I can't open that attachment for some reason.

Di

b

check your E-Mail> Di

[Diana M]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

check your E-Mail> Di

Thank you Mike

How nice to have Room Service on a Sunday Morning

Di

[MIKE770]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

You know me!!! lol

[Diana M]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Di,
The attached Application Form is from 1997, it isn't reconstituted and is signed by myself.
However, it definitely does not contain any of the prescribed terms, nor does it refer to the prescribed terms being elsewhere.
Would this make the 'agreement' unenforceable or would a Judge not take that into account?

The copy you've uploaded is illegible which gives them a problem. However there's always the risk that they will reconstitute a better version should it become necessary so don't tell them.

As I previously mentioned you appear to have taken out two kinds of insurance - possibly PPI and Card Protection. They may need to provide the policies and/or Ts & Cs for those too in order to comply (s.18 Multiple Agreements).

They will also need to have complied with other statutory obligations in order to enforce the debt in court. Have you been receiving annual Notice of Sums in Arrears (s.86)?

Wait until you hear from Cabot.

Di

[HelenaTroy]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Hi Di

Re your questions to me yesterday:

Can you read the section titled Declaration at all ? - it usually says in that bit about having read and agreed to terms overleaf or attached etc. They need to provide those terms ( as they will contain the prescribed terms interest/payments/default etc etc )

I've used a magnifying glass to try and read the Declaration. However all I can make out are the first four words in the first sentence and they are, "I confirm that I am ..." after that everything else is a total blur and unreadable, unfortunately.
However, they have provided terms etc as a separate lot of A4 papers which aren't numbered and don't have my name or any signature on them. On the Application Form that I've attached above I think the only thing on the reverse was the address that the form was to be returned to, as it was one of these you seal and fold and return.

The copy you've uploaded is illegible which gives them a problem. However there's always the risk that they will reconstitute a better version should it become necessary so don't tell them.

Should I do a CCA request to Cabot, in the hope that on this occasion NatWest can't locate a copy, or if they do, then hopefully it's even more illegible than the copy I attached above?

As I previously mentioned you appear to have taken out two kinds of insurance - possibly PPI and Card Protection. They may need to provide the policies and/or Ts & Cs for those too in order to comply (s.18 Multiple Agreements).

I don't know anything about multi agreements, but I can see that I've just ticked the one box Re ppi.
I haven't ticked the box for 'Card Protector'(for lost or stolen cards) but I have ticked the box for Credit Card Repayment Protector (ppi). I completed the online form on the NatWest website recently for a ppi refund and am waiting to hear from them.
Should I 'SAR' them also?

They will also need to have complied with other statutory obligations in order to enforce the debt in court. Have you been receiving annual Notice of Sums in Arrears (s.86)?

Since the account defaulted in 2006, NatWest never charged me any interest and accepted £1 per month from me, but would send a normal monthly statement. Then in July 2016 NatWest farmed out the account for Wescot to manage, and in each of the 6 month periods since then, Wescot have written to me advising that I should contact them for a review, but if I didn't want a review, just to keep paying the £1 per month. On each of the letters from Wescot, they stated the outstanding balance.

Wait until you hear from Cabot.

I've had two letters (in same envelope) form Cabot - one on NatWest headed paper, and the other on Cabot headed paper, both advising that the debt had been sold to Cabot, but that Wescot were continuing to manage the account.
Should I CCA Cabot?

Thank you Di for your help and advice.

[warwick65]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Something you may want to think about but there are clearly differences between your situation and mine

I had two different RBS cards. I sent CCA requests and received back two possibly legit agreements.

Last year they were sold to cabot and I sent two more CCA requests, I received one letter saying they were waiting for the agreement from RBS and they would keep me updated. that was mid 2016 - not heard a bean since - long may it continue

[HelenaTroy]

Re: Cabot bought NatWest debt

Something you may want to think about but there are clearly differences between your situation and mine

I had two different RBS cards. I sent CCA requests and received back two possibly legit agreements.

Last year they were sold to cabot and I sent two more CCA requests, I received one letter saying they were waiting for the agreement from RBS and they would keep me updated. that was mid 2016 - not heard a bean since - long may it continue

Thanks Warwick.
Did you cca Cabot as soon as they informed you they had purchased the debt?