That referendum ...

[des8]

Re: That referendum ...

Many people voted on the question in the 70s we did not have the info as readily available as we do now

This of course is the basis of arguing that decision making by referenda is just plain stupid.
Many of those voting do not have access, even now, to correct information.

We elect representatives to make these decisions for us> why did we allow them to abdicate their responsibilities?

[pt2537]

Re: That referendum ...

I did not vote reason I would have voted to stay but without political or legal control over us in the first referendum we were asked did we want to be in a COMMON market no mention of a European parliament an EU commission or anything else that came since.

We all have to now forget the EU we will not be part of it in a few years and make our future together with the countries ANYWHERE In the World who will trade with us most of Europe will no doubt

Great idea, lets all trade with er who exactly?

If we leave the single market who exactly do you think is going to provide us with an outlet?

I note that some people are saying "wheres the proof that companies will leave" well wheres the proof of countries coming forward with trade proposals?

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Many people voted on the question in the 70s we did not have the info as readily available as we do now

and the people who voted in 2016 were fed bluff bluster and bovine excrement, There was no information just half truths and falsehoods. Like the £350 mill per week ...............................

[des8]

Re: That referendum ...

To compare the idea of unifying Europe by the free agreement of the separate states with the idea of unifying them by conquest is in my view completely crass.

I deliberately did not suggest Churchill thought the UK should be part of Europe... it was mentioned to show the idea of a politically united europe was envisaged long before the 1975 referendum. I am fully aware of his view: ""We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed"

Certainly in the 50s UK only wanted a trade agreement with the 6, but that was rejected by the 6 because they were already envisaging political union, UK went on to form EFTA.

When the referendum was held in 1975 the idea that European nations intended closer political ties was no secret.

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

Many people voted on the question in the 70s we did not have the info as readily available as we do now

[leclerc]

Re: That referendum ...

I don't understand why people who voted in 1975 in answer to the question "Do you think that the United KIngdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?" seem to claim that they had no knowledge of a European parliament, the EU commissions or anything else that was in the pipeline.

Aims of political unity for Europe go back over a 100 years.
Churchill mentioned a United States of Europe in 1946.Which did not include the UK in that notion but was made directly after world war 2 when citizens were displaced along a lot of mainland Europe. I've read the speech very recently and his notion of the UK was that it had it's commonwealth at that time.
The European Parliament can trace its origins back to the consultative Common Assembly of 1952,( which developed into the European Parliamentary Assembly in 1958, becoming European Parliament in 1962))

In 1975 increasing political union was certainly one of the factors that was discussed in the City.
I certainly can recall discussing this aspect with colleagues

apologies but had to mention that issue of Churchill cos it was a specific reason why he mentioned a United States of Europe based loosely on the idea of the US and federal and state government.

Not wanting to be Boris like but didn't a certain dictator want to unify Europe as well under different rules and did a certain Russian ruler do that in regards to a curtain. In fact, the UK went towards the EFTA rather than towards the EEC. I don't think the UK has ever really been disinterested in anything other than a free trade agreement historically.

[des8]

Re: That referendum ...

I don't understand why people who voted in 1975 in answer to the question "Do you think that the United KIngdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?" seem to claim that they had no knowledge of a European parliament, the EU commissions or anything else that was in the pipeline.

Aims of political unity for Europe go back over a 100 years.
Churchill mentioned a United States of Europe in 1946.
The European Parliament can trace its origins back to the consultative Common Assembly of 1952,( which developed into the European Parliamentary Assembly in 1958, becoming European Parliament in 1962))

In 1975 increasing political union was certainly one of the factors that was discussed in the City.
I certainly can recall discussing this aspect with colleagues

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

I did not vote reason I would have voted to stay but without political or legal control over us in the first referendum we were asked did we want to be in a COMMON market no mention of a European parliament an EU commission or anything else that came since.

We all have to now forget the EU we will not be part of it in a few years and make our future together with the countries ANYWHERE In the World who will trade with us most of Europe will no doubt

[PAWS]

Re: That referendum ...

Why did you vote to leave? Whatever the reasons you must prove them. The economy is already in free fall as PT said but because it has not yet affected you personally you decide we are all lying.
Enough companies have already said that if we invoke article 50 they will have to ‘reconsider their position’. It is all in the public domain. But you want me to ruin a company by revealing confidential information. You want me to disclose privileged information?
What bit of this is so hard to understand -It will cost companies millions to relocate. Until then they need to keep operating. They live in the hope that article 50 will not be invoked or the UK will be able to negotiate decent trade agreements. They cannot afford to make a definite announcement at this stage as it would cause yet more chaos. Do you realise what would happen to the share prices if the big players were to say out right they were going on a specific date - and how could they possibly give such a date?
But you actually think proving a point to you is more important!
Is that an example of the Brexit understanding of commerce?
Go ahead and laugh if you want but I am more worried about the thousands, perhaps millions who will suffer great hardship if this goes ahead rather than scoring cheap points on a thread.

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

Name of the Company so we can check it out its the leavers who are going on about things I for one would like to see some proof

[PAWS]

Re: That referendum ...

As we know of no company that is leaving after the vote why keep going on about it?
As I have said no one knows what will happen just a few more years of speculation until we are no longer in the EU

Why keep going on about it? Are you serious? Apparently people did not go on about it enough before the vote and those who have now changed their minds are saying' Why did you not tell us'!
Are you really telling me that the economy has not already been affected by this? Does the fact that many people, are having to plan a massive upheaval not suggest something is terribly wrong? Do you think the fact that millions of pounds have been wiped off the markets is insignificant? The low value of sterling has already bitten and it will not be long before it affects the the consumer.
No, of course we are just whinging and whining. What do the lives of thousands matter. Why should anyone care if other people's jobs are in jeopardy. Just so long as someone keeps on saying 'it is all in the mind and everything will be fine'. After all, one shouldn’t let the facts get in the way of ‘fairyland’ ideals.
Right now, those who are not employed in large companies depending on European trade may think they are safe. They may be able to ignore those who can see their jobs will be taken away. Well I can tell you, this is going to have a massive effect on everyone because without those employed in the ‘now at risk’ industries and without all that ‘foreign money and trade’ this country will have nothing only a massive deficit and a lot of very angry people.
Good luck building an economy on hope and empty promises.

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You know of no company leaving -I do.

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

As we know of no company that is leaving after the vote why keep going on about it?
As I have said no one knows what will happen just a few more years of speculation until we are no longer in the EU

[PAWS]

Re: That referendum ...

What company that employees thousands of people is going to say -we are now leaving? They all have to wait until article 50 in invoked. They have all explained why they could not continue to operate in the UK if we leave due to restrictive trading legislation as well as the economic impact caused by the loss of free trade agreements.
Did the leave supporters ask Boris, Gove and Farage what guarantees they would give that all will be fine? None of the economic figures or economists predictions, none of the facts showing the leave campaign lied, none of the grave advice of the leading investors in the economy will be enough proof. Sterling dropping, market crashes-nothing is as persuasive as someone simply stating ‘It will be better’ with absolutely no qualification whatsoever. Even if I gave you the name of the company my husband worked for, even if Landrover said if you hit the button we are off, no one would listen so long as a remain campaign leader said ‘we’ll be fine’ trust me.
Can you tell me why we will be OK without simply saying all remainers are justs peculating and scaremongering. We said the markets and the pound would drop and treasury money is being used to stop the crash. We said the EU costing was incorrect. We predicted a rise in race crime and we said there would be a huge halt on European private investment. All were correct yet still we are quizzed for ‘proof’!

[leclerc]

Re: That referendum ...

[MENTION=31453]PAWS[/MENTION]: I'm still waiting for someone to name a company who have said they ARE leaving rather than awaiting what deal the UK gets before deciding IF they will leave.....

[PAWS]

Re: That referendum ...

If anything makes me angry it is when a company says it CANNOT continue to trade in the UK if we do not keep our current status in the EU and it is shown that they contribute tens of millions of pounds to the treasury not to mention the value to the economy as a whole, well, that is simply written off as speculation. Just because the dole queues did not lengthen overnight does not mean this has not scuppered the country.
I have given two specific examples of companies who will have no choice but leave. I have also pointed out figures that are backed up by the link in Amethyst’s post above that show the EU did not cost us as much as was claimed and common sense tells us we actually profited from being members.
Yet still I am asked why do I think we will not recover from this disaster!
I am afraid that no matter how many times facts and figures are pointed out some will simply call them scaremongering. When it all goes belly up something else will be blamed.
Government will have to hit the button because the leave supporters will never accept we are now beginning an economic slide like we have never seen before and will cry foul if we do not leave the EU.
But hey ho, even many of the remain supporters don’t agree with me.

[wales01man]

Re: That referendum ...

So Leclerc you are a Wally according to my OH I am an Ahole