Reconstituted CCA PRA Group (Barclay Card)

[echat11]

Any chance of pursuing further?

Taking a look at post 13 and attachments.

Normally Terms and Conditions have a reference/ issue number at the bottom of each page i.e. something like BARC04/2025 etc.

Why is that important? so they can tell what Terms and Condition apply to the year that the agreement was taken out.

You've stated that it was taken out around 2012, so how do they prove they've got the correct Terms and Conditions for the year the agreement was taken out.

I can't find any reference as that is normally at the bottom of each page. It's o.k. for them to 'populate' an agreement, but the agreement itself has to be the correct
year.

Can you go through the attachment and check for a reference / issue number that I have described.

[t187187]

Hello,

Thank you.

There is nothing detailing any form of references, so I have no way of knowing if the agreement Terms and conditions are correct for 2012. My account is on hold so I’ll make this fact known in my response.

[echat11]

Hello,

Thank you.

There is nothing detailing any form of references, so I have no way of knowing if the agreement Terms and conditions are correct for 2012. My account is on hold so I’ll make this fact known in my response.

I would just write back to say that you believe the agreement is 'unenforceable'.

Why give them an opportunity to 'rectify' the error which they can.

Then if they do proceed and make a claim, you can 'highlight' that in your Defence / Witness Statement.

That's what I would do, it's clearly up to you as to how you want to approach it.

[t187187]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

PRA still haven’t answered my question about the lack of reference number.

here is their reply: “Thank you for your dispute which was received in our offices on 13 May 2025. At PRA we make every effort to investigate cases thoroughly and fairly. The purpose of this letter is to explain the results of my investigation.

Your dispute

My understanding of your dispute is that your account should be considered unenforceable as the Agreement provided does not contain everything it should.

Response

I appreciate your standpoint that this account should be considered unenforceable. My next steps were to review the previously provided Reconstituted Agreement including Historic and Varied Terms and Conditions (Agreement).

Within your email to us, you have mentioned the Agreement doesn’t contain a reference number.

With that being said, the reference is provided within the first page of the document. I have provided a snippet from the Agreement below;

[So what they have provided here is my name and my PRA reference number, which isn’t what I have requested]


For clarity, PRA Group trust that Barclaycard have provided the correct information to us with regard to your account i.e. Terms and Conditions that were agreed to at the time of the account opening and any variations.

Considering the above, I am satisfied that your account is correctly being considered as enforceable.

However, if you have anything that would suggest otherwise, please feel free to send it to our office and I can reinvestigate.
With that being said, only a court can decide if an account is enforceable or not. I should note that we are keen to avoid legal action if possible and are happy to consider your circumstances.”


I will need to write to them again in order to clarify exactly what I am asking as I don’t think the case handler has any clue. Do you think it’s worth finding an example of a reference to show them?

[echat11]

Hello,

Thanks for your reply.

PRA still haven’t answered my question about the lack of reference number.

here is their reply: “Thank you for your dispute which was received in our offices on 13 May 2025. At PRA we make every effort to investigate cases thoroughly and fairly. The purpose of this letter is to explain the results of my investigation.

Your dispute

My understanding of your dispute is that your account should be considered unenforceable as the Agreement provided does not contain everything it should.

Response

I appreciate your standpoint that this account should be considered unenforceable. My next steps were to review the previously provided Reconstituted Agreement including Historic and Varied Terms and Conditions (Agreement).

Within your email to us, you have mentioned the Agreement doesn’t contain a reference number.

With that being said, the reference is provided within the first page of the document. I have provided a snippet from the Agreement below;

[So what they have provided here is my name and my PRA reference number, which isn’t what I have requested]


For clarity, PRA Group trust that Barclaycard have provided the correct information to us with regard to your account i.e. Terms and Conditions that were agreed to at the time of the account opening and any variations.

Considering the above, I am satisfied that your account is correctly being considered as enforceable.

However, if you have anything that would suggest otherwise, please feel free to send it to our office and I can reinvestigate.
With that being said, only a court can decide if an account is enforceable or not. I should note that we are keen to avoid legal action if possible and are happy to consider your circumstances.”


I will need to write to them again in order to clarify exactly what I am asking as I don’t think the case handler has any clue. Do you think it’s worth finding an example of a reference to show them?

You shouldn't have to find an example, just write back clarifying what you are saying, you could use a 'car analogy', where they use letters of the alphabet for the year of registration. Banks do something similar.

[t187187]

Yes, I’ll send a reply.

But before I do so, I have looked at relevant letters and dates from PRA and my Barclaycard SAR concerning the NOA and DN and the dates and amounts are not the same.

Letter dated 16 April 2025 from PRA stated the DN date as 27 February 2019 and the amount as £3,758.13. The PRA group purchase date 19 December 2019 amount £3,758.13. The same letter also attached the NOA which stated ‘What you need to know:
• When we transferred your Barclaycard account on 19 December 2019 , the outstanding balance was £3518.13

When I checked my SAR from Barclaycard the apparent DN was served and dated on 25 January 2019 for the amount of £550.84.


I’m questioning the above as the information provided by separate sources need further clarification. Will it be right to make PRA aware?

Thank you

[echat11]

Yes, I’ll send a reply.

But before I do so, I have looked at relevant letters and dates from PRA and my Barclaycard SAR concerning the NOA and DN and the dates and amounts are not the same.

Letter dated 16 April 2025 from PRA stated the DN date as 27 February 2019 and the amount as £3,758.13. The PRA group purchase date 19 December 2019 amount £3,758.13. The same letter also attached the NOA which stated ‘What you need to know:
• When we transferred your Barclaycard account on 19 December 2019 , the outstanding balance was £3518.13

When I checked my SAR from Barclaycard the apparent DN was served and dated on 25 January 2019 for the amount of £550.84.


I’m questioning the above as the information provided by separate sources need further clarification. Will it be right to make PRA aware?

Thank you

I would just deal with the compliant CCA issue.

Everything else can be used as evidence in your Defence / Witness Statement.

[t187187]

Yes, I’ll send a reply.

But before I do so, I have looked at relevant letters and dates from PRA and my Barclaycard SAR concerning the NOA and DN and the dates and amounts are not the same.

Letter dated 16 April 2025 from PRA stated the DN date as 27 February 2019 and the amount as £3,758.13. The PRA group purchase date 19 December 2019 amount £3,758.13. The same letter also attached the NOA which stated ‘What you need to know:
• When we transferred your Barclaycard account on 19 December 2019 , the outstanding balance was £3518.13

When I checked my SAR from Barclaycard the apparent DN was served and dated on 25 January 2019 for the amount of £550.84.


I’m questioning the above as the information provided by separate sources need further clarification. Will it be right to make PRA aware?

Thank you

[t187187]

Response from PRA:

My understanding of your dispute is that you believe the agreement provided is incomplete.

Response

Please find attached the Reconstituted Agreement including Historic and Varied Terms and

Conditions (T&C’s), and the account Statements.

As you are previously aware, due to us supplying this documentation, I am satisfied that we have fulfilled our obligation under the CCA regulations.

To be clear, PRA Group do consider your account to be enforceable. For clarity, any decision in the future to proceed with litigation action would be assessed by our Investigations and Litigations

Department prior to any action being taken, and I have provided more information about the legal status of your account in the next steps section.

Upon receiving your dispute, I first reviewed the above documentation and noted your concerns that you feel each page of it should contain a date/issue reference.

For clarity, having reviewed agreements across a wide range of banks, I have noted that while they do provide identifying information at some point within the document, they do not typically provide this throughout the entire document via a header or footer. As such, I disagree with your assertion that the lack of a header or footer containing this would impact the enforceability of your account.

Additionally, having carefully reviewed the agreement for any issues, I can confirm that the agreement we have provided to you meets all the requirements to be considered legible. From reading your correspondence, I understand that you feel the address used by Barclaycard, the natural conclusion of the document, and the lack of dates in the T&C’s all lead to the account being considered unenforceable. Having carefully reviewed these points in relation to your agreement, I disagree.

Firstly, it is standard practice for creditors to use the last recorded address they hold for you when reconstituting an agreement, as this is for the purpose of clearly identifying who the agreement relates to, and they have no obligation to provide anything beyond that. Secondly, the natural conclusion of the document is where it would typically be in a Reconstituted Agreement such as your own.

In relation to the last of your three points, the standards and requirements for Reconstituted Agreements are laid out in the Consumer Credit Act (CCA) 1974, and are regulated by the Financial
Conduct Authority (“FCA”). As Barclaycard are also regulated by the FCA, (FSR number: 759676), the process they use to reconstitute their agreements must meet all the regulatory requirements as to be considered a ‘true copy’ of the original.

Whilst the FCA guidelines advise that the copy of the executed agreement should be a ‘true copy’ of the original, to be clear, this does not necessarily mean an exact copy of the signed agreement.

There is no obligation to provide a copy which includes the signature. Furthermore, a firm can reconstitute a copy by re-populating a template of the relevant agreement form with the details of the specific agreement from its records.

Having reviewed all available information, I am satisfied that your account remains enforceable at this time.

We are acting on information that was provided to us by Barclaycard which we trust to be accurate.

PRA Group have supported you with the supplied Reconstituted Agreement including Historic and Varied T&C’s as well as statements to prove the balance remains outstanding. In light of this information, we have exhausted our dispute process in relation to this matter, meaning future queries may be noted on the account but not responded to.

Next steps

I trust that this now clarifies our position in relation to your dispute, however if we have misunderstood any element or you have new information that we should consider please contact our Disputes Team on 0808 1965 542 or disputes@pragroup.co.uk quoting the dispute reference number.

Whilst I appreciate you may be disappointed with our decision; we do regard this account to be outstanding. Because of the stage that your account is at, I do need to make you aware that we have carried out and investigation which suggests you are in a position to come to a resolution - the next stage is for us to issue a claim through the Court. We would like to work with you to stop this happening.

[echat11]

'Upon receiving your dispute, I first reviewed the above documentation and noted your concerns that you feel each page of it should contain a date/issue reference.

For clarity, having reviewed agreements across a wide range of banks, I have noted that while they do provide identifying information at some point within the document, they do not typically provide this throughout the entire document via a header or footer. As such, I disagree with your assertion that the lack of a header or footer containing this would impact the enforceability of your account.'

How can you tell, that the Reconstituted Agreement is for the year you took out the agreement? You can't unless there is a year reference number on the Reconstituted Agreement.

Firstly, it is standard practice for creditors to use the last recorded address they hold for you when reconstituting an agreement, as this is for the purpose of clearly identifying who the agreement relates to, and they have no obligation to provide anything beyond that. Secondly, the natural conclusion of the document is where it would typically be in a Reconstituted Agreement such as your own.

If they've 'varied' the Terms and Conditions, they would need to send them to the correct address, no point in sending them to the incorrect address (providing they have the correct address).

Notice they've caveated everything with Barclaycard provided the information. I still think it's 'unenforceable'.

I'd hold fire on quizzing them about the Default Notice, it will help you in your Defence / Witness Statement, if they file a claim. What they've written, they don't sound confident.

Update the thread if you get a LBA.

[t187187]

Thanks.

I am unable to tell when the reconstituted agreement was taken out.
Do you know of any case law or policy which backs up this assertion? As I’ve explained that the agreement isn’t legible backed by PRAvHolmes. Also, I noticed that some of the words were marked and covered black thereby omitting them as unreadable and then their proceeding agreements sent, no longer have the markings. If you could take a look at the attachment, it’ll be shown on the document.


Could you advise on whether I had varied/historic terms and conditions by having a skim through the agreement that I attached on the first page of this thread? As I’ve read, there are two different addresses on this agreement.

With regards to the DN, it seems accurate. I looked closely and found another letter stating: ‘A default has been registered on your account - you need to pay your balance now.’ Default date and amount match info provided by PRA. Important to note, There were other letters tilted: Important - You should read t this carefully- Default Notice Served under section 87 (1)…’
Upon reading, it can be taken as an actual Default Notice, but I realised it’s a pre-action to the actual DN. Also, they have provided a NOA claimed to have been sent to me.

With a DoA, can it be requested by a solicitor or judge and does it hold PRA accountable for an unenforceable agreement?

[echat11]

I am unable to tell when the reconstituted agreement was taken out.

Do you know of any case law or policy which backs up this assertion? As I’ve explained that the agreement isn’t legible backed by PRAvHolmes. Also, I noticed that some of the words were marked and covered black thereby omitting them as unreadable and then their proceeding agreements sent, no longer have the markings. If you could take a look at the attachment, it’ll be shown on the document.

Their records will have the date when the agreement was taken out. What I'm saying is if the agreement was taken out in 2014, how would you know they have Reconstructed the Terms and Conditions for that year? They maybe be the Terms and Conditions for 2015,2016, 2017 etc. That's why a reference number is important, Barclaycard 100% would have a reference number on the agreement / Terms and Conditions.

You could get a relative to ask Barclaycard Customer Services where can you find the year reference number on a credit agreement, they should be able to point your relative in the right direction.

Could you advise on whether I had varied/historic terms and conditions by having a skim through the agreement that I attached on the first page of this thread? As I’ve read, there are two different addresses on this agreement.

The Reconstructed agreement should contain the address where you lived when you too out the agreement. You may have moved, so 'variations' will have your address at that time.

With regards to the DN, it seems accurate. I looked closely and found another letter stating: ‘A default has been registered on your account - you need to pay your balance now.’ Default date and amount match info provided by PRA. Important to note, There were other letters tilted: Important - You should read t this carefully- Default Notice Served under section 87 (1)…’
Upon reading, it can be taken as an actual Default Notice, but I realised it’s a pre-action to the actual DN. Also, they have provided a NOA claimed to have been sent to me.

With a DoA, can it be requested by a solicitor or judge and does it hold PRA accountable for an unenforceable agreement?

Yes Default Notices could result in the account being 'unenforceable', but this all depends on the facts, the Courts / Judges.

[t187187]

The DofA meaning Deed of Assignment. Can this be requested by a solicitor or judge? Thanks

[echat11]

The DofA meaning Deed of Assignment. Can this be requested by a solicitor or judge? Thanks

You can send Barclaycard a Subject Access Request, they have 30 days to provide all the documentation they hold on the account.
Make sure you get Proof of Postage.

https://legalbeagles.info/library/gu...ccess-request/

If they lodge a Claim with the Courts against you, that is something you would make a request for under CPR 31.14.

So the debt maybe 'unenforceable' because they haven't provided a a Deed of Assignment, but only the Judges / Courts can make that Judgement.

[t187187]

Good morning,

I have prepared a defence against PRA with assistance from xxx solicitors and they have found a few anomalies.

So, in a nutshell, PRA pleaded that I entered into a credit agreement with Barclays Bank UK PLC, but this is on a date that did not even exist because they weren’t incorporated when I signed the credit agreement. The agreement was only with Barclays Bank PLC. Different legal entities. But they have not pleaded it.

They should have also provided me with a chain of assignment between the different entities.

So the burden of proof of is now on PRA.